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 Post subject: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:55 am 
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Neon Enthusiast

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Location: orlando florida
i know it keeps the intake manifold cleaner...but i ALWAYS HEAR GOOD AND BAD STUFF like better throttle response..to a whole theory on how u actually lose HP!!! :sad: CAN ANY ONE CRACK THIS AND TRY TO DETERMINE THE BEST OF THIS??

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95 SOHC/MTX highline coupe
Kirk long tube w/dei wrap, Magnaflow muffler, Cat delete, Gates Racing timing belt, Granatellis 8mm wires and coil, Boogers, Modern heat shield, ATX TB,CAI, polyurethane motor mounts,pennzoil synchromesh tranny fluid


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:02 am 
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X2 I wouldn't mind knowing some opinions myself (especially since I removed mine and made my own delete while replacing headgasket on my 96). I'm willing to bet like most things there are differing opinions/facts. I see in your sig you removed your cat. I've even heard differing opinions on that as well.

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96 FR Coupe sold to my lil sister...but I still claim it.
97 FR Sport dohc atx coupe..(SOLD)
98 R/T Black/silver....gone to scrapper
99 RT Red/silver (SRT'd 2.0) 54K miles since turbo and still going strong.....
04 Bought it with 80K actual miles
05 SRT4 Flame red (sold)
98 IB Sport Sedan (new toy)

07 Honda Foreman 500 2" lift kit, 27" ITP Swamplites (my mud/rock climbing machine)


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:12 am 
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with the cat delete i see no cons for me atleast......i got stock piping perfect condition with kirk headers and magnaflow muffler...i only added like 5inch of pipe inbetween the header and existing exhaust...kirk long tube header replaced full cat ...like i said only add about 5inch inbetween,,,,one thing though the kirk headet end coupler was way too low ...so i cut like a 2inch v shape on the coupler and welded and went on str8t!!!! sounds low until i get on it,clean mean sound!!!and since i didnt over do it and left the 2.25 of the existing exuast alone,it pulls nice with nice amount of backpressure.i believe u need atleat a bit,,,too open for a na could be bad in my opinion/ anyway yea wanna hear about the egr delete ...thanks

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Kirk long tube w/dei wrap, Magnaflow muffler, Cat delete, Gates Racing timing belt, Granatellis 8mm wires and coil, Boogers, Modern heat shield, ATX TB,CAI, polyurethane motor mounts,pennzoil synchromesh tranny fluid


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:38 am 
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I didn't really mean a con, just no gain in power by removing a cat that is in good working order. NOT my words, just what I've read. I'm not going with a header as I hope to turbo it in near future. I do plan on another muffler. I like the sound you describe and may look into that muffler that you have. If you were wanting to know about the delete I made, it was too easy. Go to local junkyard and grab blockoff plate off a newer sohc head. I grabbed the one off my wife's 2K model. Hers threw a timing belt exactly 24 hours before I was planning to replace it (talk about dumb luck). Then remove EGR plumbing. Leave the solenoid so it won't throw a code and cut/plug 2 vacuum lines going to it. Then cut pipe about an inch above where it mounts to intake. Fill cut end with allen head bolt that best fits and weld her on there. Then just remount it back onto intake.

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96 Chevy S10 ZR2
96 FR Coupe sold to my lil sister...but I still claim it.
97 FR Sport dohc atx coupe..(SOLD)
98 R/T Black/silver....gone to scrapper
99 RT Red/silver (SRT'd 2.0) 54K miles since turbo and still going strong.....
04 Bought it with 80K actual miles
05 SRT4 Flame red (sold)
98 IB Sport Sedan (new toy)

07 Honda Foreman 500 2" lift kit, 27" ITP Swamplites (my mud/rock climbing machine)


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:45 am 
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there is no gain in power. it is closed at WOT anyways. youll only see: less carbon buildup in the intake, and less gas mileage. oh. and higher NOx emissions.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:54 am 
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nasohckiller wrote:
i know it keeps the intake manifold cleaner...but i ALWAYS HEAR GOOD AND BAD STUFF like better throttle response..to a whole theory on how u actually lose HP!!! :sad: CAN ANY ONE CRACK THIS AND TRY TO DETERMINE THE BEST OF THIS??


"Results may Vary", depending upon individual modifications done to an engine, and different combinations.

Are we talking about ERG delete using the factory PCM ? Or an AFX or Mopar Performance unit ?
What kind of cam is in the engine ? Any exhaust mods ??
How about the octane of the fuel being used ?? And what area of the country are you running ?? ( fuel quality and fuel type may vary with location - E10 vs. regular 'straight' gasoline, etc.)
Or, any different combination of the above.

This is why I think it is impossible to get a straight answer on this topic.
What works well for one guy, may not produce the same effect on your vehicle.


EGR only comes into play at part-throttle conditions; it is effectively disabled at wide-open throttle.


- Nick

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-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:44 am 
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Capiton23 wrote:
there is no gain in power. it is closed at WOT anyways. youll only see: less carbon buildup in the intake, and less gas mileage. oh. and higher NOx emissions.



this.

nasohckiller wrote:
with the cat delete i see no cons for me atleast......


that's because you don't really know what you're doing.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Neon Enthusiast

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Location: orlando florida
^^^^umm yea...main reason i took it off is cause i did it on my prelude and gained hp for sure....i dynoed it and gave me an extra 2hp....so why not do it on the neon?oh and since the 95's dont read the downstream like that,it gave it a less negative affect, oh and i only got the 95 cam,89 octane,one range colder spark plug,and couple bolt ons, any egr delete suggestion on that setup? thanks

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Kirk long tube w/dei wrap, Magnaflow muffler, Cat delete, Gates Racing timing belt, Granatellis 8mm wires and coil, Boogers, Modern heat shield, ATX TB,CAI, polyurethane motor mounts,pennzoil synchromesh tranny fluid


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Neon Enthusiast

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Location: Upton, Ky
nasohckiller wrote:
^^^^umm yea...main reason i took it off is cause i did it on my prelude and gained hp for sure....i dynoed it and gave me an extra 2hp....so why not do it on the neon?oh and since the 95's dont read the downstream like that,it gave it a less negative affect, oh and i only got the 95 cam,89 octane,one range colder spark plug,and couple bolt ons, any egr delete suggestion on that setup? thanks


i would imagine this is because your egr was stuck open, thus diluting and raising the temp of the air going to your motor.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:27 pm 
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daMN I FOR GOT they can also be stuck open...amyway of finding out???

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Kirk long tube w/dei wrap, Magnaflow muffler, Cat delete, Gates Racing timing belt, Granatellis 8mm wires and coil, Boogers, Modern heat shield, ATX TB,CAI, polyurethane motor mounts,pennzoil synchromesh tranny fluid


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:29 pm 
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a really common symptom is a bad idle.
i guess let it idle and if the pipe on the intake side is real hot, it's not closed all the way.lol

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Neon Enthusiast

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alrite ill try that out thanks

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Kirk long tube w/dei wrap, Magnaflow muffler, Cat delete, Gates Racing timing belt, Granatellis 8mm wires and coil, Boogers, Modern heat shield, ATX TB,CAI, polyurethane motor mounts,pennzoil synchromesh tranny fluid


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:06 pm 
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I'd give up a little gas mileage to get that monstrosity outta my engine bay. My intake was pitiful when I took it off last week. Full of carbon and other crap.

_________________
96 Chevy S10 ZR2
96 FR Coupe sold to my lil sister...but I still claim it.
97 FR Sport dohc atx coupe..(SOLD)
98 R/T Black/silver....gone to scrapper
99 RT Red/silver (SRT'd 2.0) 54K miles since turbo and still going strong.....
04 Bought it with 80K actual miles
05 SRT4 Flame red (sold)
98 IB Sport Sedan (new toy)

07 Honda Foreman 500 2" lift kit, 27" ITP Swamplites (my mud/rock climbing machine)


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:49 pm 
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Neon Mechanic
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nasohckiller wrote:
^^^^umm yea...main reason i took it off is cause i did it on my prelude and gained hp for sure....i dynoed it and gave me an extra 2hp....



2 HP ??? I think there is a repeatability issue here...

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:06 pm 
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RicksNeon wrote:
nasohckiller wrote:
^^^^umm yea...main reason i took it off is cause i did it on my prelude and gained hp for sure....i dynoed it and gave me an extra 2hp....



2 HP ??? I think there is a repeatability issue here...


I was going to say..... I wouldn't delete a cat converter, for a lousy 2 HP.
The noise and 'buzziness' isn't worth it.

You can probably gain almost 2 HP just by putting in some fresh and properly gapped spark plugs.


- Nick

_________________
-1995 4-dr SOHC ATX= "Organ Donor"
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Neon Enthusiast

Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:58 am
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Location: orlando florida
NickKo wrote:
RicksNeon wrote:
nasohckiller wrote:
^^^^umm yea...main reason i took it off is cause i did it on my prelude and gained hp for sure....i dynoed it and gave me an extra 2hp....



2 HP ??? I think there is a repeatability issue here...


I was going to say..... I wouldn't delete a cat converter, for a lousy 2 HP.
The noise and 'buzziness' isn't worth it.

You can probably gain almost 2 HP just by putting in some fresh and properly gapped spark plugs.


- Nick

yep 2 hp extra and saved $200 on a new cat....not to mention the work to relocate cause of my kirk long tube....soooo yea its a good tradeoff. mines sounds great!!!! that buzziness is mostly for people who also get a 3inch exhaust with a fart can.oh and my cat was clogged badly so no i wouldnt put that one back on.

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Kirk long tube w/dei wrap, Magnaflow muffler, Cat delete, Gates Racing timing belt, Granatellis 8mm wires and coil, Boogers, Modern heat shield, ATX TB,CAI, polyurethane motor mounts,pennzoil synchromesh tranny fluid


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:50 pm 
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neons without cats are buzzy. as is any 4 cylinder car. mines gutted, but i have a muffler and resonator to remove the buzz. atleast its not as bad as a honda. i hate the way D and B series engines sound.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:55 pm 
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egr delete will give you no horsepower. Its closed at wide open throttle, unless its stuck open. If it was stuck open, youd know just by listening to idle. Itd run like crap at idle.


Your cat delete got you maybe 2 hp, tops, without a way to tune for it. Your also running the risk of a $5000 federal fine, no matter what your local emissions people care about.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:42 pm 
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There's power gain over time vs valve that just get dirtier and more gunky and heavier.

Net result, no power gain, some folks will say higher combustion temperatures - even though egr valve only open under specific conditions ( over 45mph for extended duration, etc) - loged many hours of egt temps, never saw a measureable increase.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:50 pm 
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TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL wrote:
egr delete will give you no horsepower. Its closed at wide open throttle, unless its stuck open. If it was stuck open, youd know just by listening to idle. Itd run like crap at idle.


Your cat delete got you maybe 2 hp, tops, without a way to tune for it. Your also running the risk of a $5000 federal fine, no matter what your local emissions people care about.

i live in fl NO EMISSIONS not CALI KING OF EMISSIONS!!! thanks anyway!!!

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:20 pm 
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nasohckiller wrote:
i live in fl NO EMISSIONS not CALI KING OF EMISSIONS!!! thanks anyway!!!


Florida and California have no say it's a federal mandate(law) that all cars since 1972 have a catalytic converter hence the mention of a $5,000 fine.

Although on the flipside if you live in an area that has no emissions who would bother to look and see whether you still have a cat on your car. I mean seriously are they going to start having some federal inspector start going out an checking every single car to insure they still have their catalytic converter on and functional.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:24 pm 
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dualedout1stgen wrote:
nasohckiller wrote:
i live in fl NO EMISSIONS not CALI KING OF EMISSIONS!!! thanks anyway!!!


Florida and California have no say it's a federal mandate(law) that all cars since 1972 have a catalytic converter hence the mention of a $5,000 fine.

Although on the flipside if you live in an area that has no emissions who would bother to look and see whether you still have a cat on your car. I mean seriously are they going to start having some federal inspector start going out an checking every single car to insure they still have their catalytic converter on and functional.


in ky you could run cat less no problem.
it's not uncommon to see straight piped cars/trucks where i'm from.
i drove right buy the sherrif with an open LTH one day, didn't even turn his head....

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:33 pm 
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coltonhursey wrote:
dualedout1stgen wrote:
nasohckiller wrote:
i live in fl NO EMISSIONS not CALI KING OF EMISSIONS!!! thanks anyway!!!


Florida and California have no say it's a federal mandate(law) that all cars since 1972 have a catalytic converter hence the mention of a $5,000 fine.

Although on the flipside if you live in an area that has no emissions who would bother to look and see whether you still have a cat on your car. I mean seriously are they going to start having some federal inspector start going out an checking every single car to insure they still have their catalytic converter on and functional.


in ky you could run cat less no problem.
it's not uncommon to see straight piped cars/trucks where i'm from.
i drove right buy the sherrif with an open LTH one day, didn't even turn his head....


Alot of places have people who just don't care, also it would require someone who 1) knows what the h*ll they're a)looking for and b) looking at and 2)actually give a damn about whether or not someone is violating a federal law and want to take the time out of their day to prove it.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:38 pm 
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lifted truck+headers+true duals all the way back=can't miss weather there is/isn't a cat/cat's
my friend drives a 94 f150 xlt.
has a 5.0, so it requires at least 2 cats.
it has duals all the way back,
he went to get it registered, they said that it needs 2 cats, checked, saw no cat, and didn't care.lol

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:55 pm 
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yea ...the people against cats are usually the people who cant do it because of the emissions law! too bad me and others dont have to worry about that so we delete them off.....4 the better!!!!....minor minor hp gain,less weight,not have to worry about it getting clogged,and dont have to spend over $100bucks to put another one on if it does mess up......anyways this WAS a egr thread thats turning into a CAT DELETTE THREAD!!!! lol :pardon:

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:58 pm 
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Neon Enthusiast

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Location: Upton, Ky
i only payed 50 for a brand new cat, a high flow 2.5 inch one too. :dunno:
i doubt it'll help hp if it weren't there,
and i couldn't imagine the extreme rice scream coming out of my tail pipes if i didn't have it there,
it's bad enough with it anyways...

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:18 am 
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i dont know bro....your gonna have to hear mines!
coltonhursey wrote:
i only payed 50 for a brand new cat, a high flow 2.5 inch one too. :dunno:
i doubt it'll help hp if it weren't there,
and i couldn't imagine the extreme rice scream coming out of my tail pipes if i didn't have it there,
it's bad enough with it anyways...

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:26 am 
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but, me and my friends have come to an unanimous decision.
even though my exhaust sounds like leaf spring juice while DD ing,
it has a dirty sound at wot past 4k.
not like hobo dirty, like mean dirty.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:09 am 
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Neon Enthusiast

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Location: Fresno, CA
nasohckiller wrote:
TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL wrote:
egr delete will give you no horsepower. Its closed at wide open throttle, unless its stuck open. If it was stuck open, youd know just by listening to idle. Itd run like crap at idle.


Your cat delete got you maybe 2 hp, tops, without a way to tune for it. Your also running the risk of a $5000 federal fine, no matter what your local emissions people care about.

i live in fl NO EMISSIONS not CALI KING OF EMISSIONS!!! thanks anyway!!!


it wont be long before every state adopts cali smog laws. MA already did, and florida is getting close to approving it.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:12 am 
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TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL wrote:
nasohckiller wrote:
TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL wrote:
egr delete will give you no horsepower. Its closed at wide open throttle, unless its stuck open. If it was stuck open, youd know just by listening to idle. Itd run like crap at idle.


Your cat delete got you maybe 2 hp, tops, without a way to tune for it. Your also running the risk of a $5000 federal fine, no matter what your local emissions people care about.

i live in fl NO EMISSIONS not CALI KING OF EMISSIONS!!! thanks anyway!!!


it wont be long before every state adopts cali smog laws. MA already did, and florida is getting close to approving it.


does that mean only OEM equipment on every street legal vehical? :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 4:55 am 
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mine sound like vtec kicks in !!!!like a mean all motor gsr

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:04 am 
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nasohckiller wrote:
mine sound like vtec kicks in !!!!like a mean all motor gsr



So it sounds like it makes the noise we all hate...that really raspy I am 16 years old and deliver for dominios kinda exhaust note eh....

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:39 am 
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TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL wrote:
it wont be long before every state adopts cali smog laws. MA already did, and florida is getting close to approving it.

They discussed implementing CA.laws here in IL., maybe about 10 years back ?
Fortunately, this did not happen, but that doesn't mean it won't be reconsidered and implemented in the future.

Partly for this reason, I will never get rid of my cat converter, and have not been defeating any emissions-related equipment, on any of my vehicles.
Not to mention, I don't care for the buzzy sound of the exhaust, running without a converter, on a Neon, regardless.


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:45 am 
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HELL YEA THATS WHA IM TALKING BOUT :good:
NickKo wrote:
TOOSTUBBORN2FAIL wrote:
it wont be long before every state adopts cali smog laws. MA already did, and florida is getting close to approving it.

They discussed implementing CA.laws here in IL., maybe about 10 years back ?
Fortunately, this did not happen, but that doesn't mean it won't be reconsidered and implemented in the future.

Partly for this reason, I will never get rid of my cat converter, and have not been defeating any emissions-related equipment, on any of my vehicles.
Not to mention, I don't care for the buzzy sound of the exhaust, running without a converter, on a Neon, regardless.


- Nick

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:46 am 
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no.....PERFORMANCE SOUND!!!! magna flow muffler/not fart can
-NAME- wrote:
nasohckiller wrote:
mine sound like vtec kicks in !!!!like a mean all motor gsr



So it sounds like it makes the noise we all hate...that really raspy I am 16 years old and deliver for dominios kinda exhaust note eh....

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Kirk long tube w/dei wrap, Magnaflow muffler, Cat delete, Gates Racing timing belt, Granatellis 8mm wires and coil, Boogers, Modern heat shield, ATX TB,CAI, polyurethane motor mounts,pennzoil synchromesh tranny fluid


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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:53 am 
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nasohckiller wrote:
no.....PERFORMANCE SOUND!!!! magna flow muffler/not fart can
-NAME- wrote:
nasohckiller wrote:
mine sound like vtec kicks in !!!!like a mean all motor gsr



So it sounds like it makes the noise we all hate...that really raspy I am 16 years old and deliver for dominios kinda exhaust note eh....


have you ever heard cat less exhaust on even a stock muffler?
still sounds bad...
unless it's a v8, it's gonna sound bad most of the time...

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 Post subject: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:59 am 
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My exhaust sounds good. Not much rasp. It's gutted cat, 2.5 catback, 32 in glasspack, and a small single chamber. I'd post a vid but I'm on my phone. It's in the exhaust sound thread in the engine performance section tho if u wanna hear it

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Capiton23 wrote:
My exhaust sounds good. Not much rasp. It's gutted cat, 2.5 catback, 32 in glasspack, and a small single chamber. I'd post a vid but I'm on my phone. It's in the exhaust sound thread in the engine performance section tho if u wanna hear it


lol, a 32 inch glass pack will do that.
dam, i didn't even know they made them that big.

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:05 pm 
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imma try to record my exhaust note too so you guys tell me what you think!!

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 Post subject: Re: TRUTH ABOUT EGR DELETE!?!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:45 pm 
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i kno my emissions are off the charts i can smell how rich my sohc runs with the mopar ecu.
2nd gen head (non egr) test pipe

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