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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:16 pm 
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InPsychOut wrote:
I think what Mat said makes sense. I re-read this whole thread looking to see what's been tried, because at first, my strong opinion was just that it was a bad camshaft sensor. I believe the OP said he did finally replace it and it did not improve the problem. If he did not eventually replace it, that would be the most obvious starting point, IMO.

But re-reading, I got more of an overall picture of the car's recent history.
Previous owner claims the timing belt and water pump were replaced sometime in the past, and then the car was driven without issue for a while after.
Then, the PO claims that the car was parked, not driven for a whole year, and would not start back up a year later.

If we assume all that information to be true, does thinking about that stuff give anyone additional ideas? I was thinking exposure to the elements while parked could have coroded electrical connections and grounds. I also thought that the cam magnet itself might be no good, though I think I remember that this is a dealer-only item. But maybe other people have other ideas. I agree that it sounds electrical rather than mechanical though.

Incidentally, are there other problems he should look for that might be caused by sitting for a year without being driven?

Hi Jerry,
This is very useful information. It brings up a couple of other possibilities:


- Bad Cam Magnet
These do not fail often, but I have heard of that happening.....it is rare.
They are easy to replace.....I would try swapping with one (or two) spares from a junkyard if you don't want to pay dealer prices.

- Fuel
Has fresh gasoline been put into the tank ? It takes less than a month for gasoline to start going stale....
Try pouring in a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil with some fresh fuel, it may help. (I use Marvel Mystery Oil as a fuel stabilizer, it works well, and will help old, crappy gas.)



Regarding grounds: There are a few in the engine compartment that I can think of, right off the top of my head......
One is on the passenger side, on the strut tower; another on the driver's side, in the strut tower area, and two smaller ones bolted up near both headlamps.
On mine, I unbolted them, scraped off the paint where the ring lug and bolt make contact, and then bolted them back up.
I noticed that my instrument cluster lights appeared brighter after doing this !! Although the connections "looked" and tested good, cleaning the grounds made for a better connection.


If there is a problem with the engine sensor wiring harness, it is much easier to inspect and repair off the car.
You'll be able to see problems you might have otherwised missed.
Removing the harness is actually really easy !! It is just tedious..... I take the time to label all the connections with some white tape before removal.
The reason for marking the connectors, is not just to avoid screwing up plugging them in wrong.
I do it because it makes diagnosis easier when it is off the car....It will help you recall which plug serves whichever sensor, when you have it on your scam for you table or living room floor. :grin:

- Nick

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Thank you forthe reply. I think I have ruled out wiring. I can make the car run by taking out the cam sensor bolts and turning the sensor about 30 degrees. I have heard that the cam sproket has history of shearing the small pin causing the cam to be off even though the sprocket marks lines up. Has anyone had this happen?


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:42 pm 
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jerryrom wrote:
Thank you forthe reply. I think I have ruled out wiring. I can make the car run by taking out the cam sensor bolts and turning the sensor about 30 degrees. I have heard that the cam sproket has history of shearing the small pin causing the cam to be off even though the sprocket marks lines up. Has anyone had this happen?

This will happen, if the cam sproket is not torqued to spec, which is 85 ft./lbs.

If it spun 30 degrees, you would have bent valves in the cylinder head for sure.

I would try swapping the cam magnet itself, and go from there.

- Nick

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:42 pm 
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FYI, the cam pin is used for locating the cam gear properly, not keeping the gear from moving during a run cycle. In fact, the old SOHC road racers used to cut the pins off and use the hole as a reference point to make an "adjustable" cam gear with the factory gear (legal and sneaky). The 85 ft/lbs (like Nick said) is what keeps the gear in position and if it wasn't torqued properly, shearing the pin is just a byproduct. Also like he said, if the gear was slipping 30 degrees, you'd have some seriously fubar'd valves. How does the car run with the 30 degree slide of the CPS? I think you're getting *really* close now, Jerry.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:36 am 
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Hi

If I rotate the cam sensor the car runs. It idles good but lacks power. If I give throttle it bogs down. That is why I was thinking the cam is slightly off. I am going to a junk yard today to get a magnet. They have a Neon engine with the cover off. I am going to line up the top timing mark and look where the cam magnet mark is in reference to the cam and see if mine is the same. When the sprocket is at TDC on my car the cam magnet had a grove in the side edge that is at about 7 oclock position. That will tell me for sure. Thank you for all the inputs. We are getting closer! Jerry


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:28 pm 
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I replaced the cam magnet today. Still no start. I am convinced that the cam has spun on the sprocket just enough to cause a no start witht the electronics involved. I have now covered and verified every single external part. The only thing left is the cam. I am going to start the slow painful process of tearing down the front of the engine. Any pointers that would be useful from those who have done it on a 2nd gen?


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:05 pm 
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I don't know anything to tell you about tearing down the engine to get at the timing gears, but I think you'll find that is your problem. I just hope it wasn't off so much that you broke stuff. Good luck. I can't wait to hear what happens. :good:


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:32 pm 
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It might be a sticky on this forum (you can Google it too) but Chronoscender has THE definitive write-up on changing the timing belt, which is the best guide for you to use for the teardown. Sorry it came to this, Jerry, but take comfort in the fact that you have eliminated every other possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:53 am 
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Hi Mat. Thanks for the tip. I looked it up and downloaded the page. I will give an update after I get into it. I am fairly confident this will solve the problem. And if it does, I hope this long discussion of tips helps a lot of others in the future if anyone else has this crazy thing happen. Update to follow. Jerry


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:49 am 
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Good point...perhaps this should be a sticky.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:40 pm 
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My thoughts have been confirmed, the cam sprocket spun about 20 degrees on the cam. The timing marks still line up but the cam is not indexed correctly on the sprocket. There is only a small pin indexing the sprocket to the cam and it sheared. The cam timing was off enough where it would not run with the electronics involved but would run without. Thank you to all that offered tips. This is one to remember in case it ever happens to you!


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:14 am 
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Good to know! Great you found out what it was!

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:41 am 
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20 degrees is a bad thing, Jerry. Time to pull that head off and check the valves. But I'm glad to hear that everything was else was elminated accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:52 am 
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Ditto what Mat said. First thing I thought when I was reading your post about the pin shearing off was "oh man...piston slamming into valves = no good"...or something to that effect :grin: Definitely pop the head and inspect the top of the pistons for scratches, and the valves to make sure they aren't bent. with 20* off, they very well may have come in contact with eachother.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Update. Cam sprocket pin corrected problem, car runs fine now. But the oil light issue ended up being a clogged screen on the pump pick up. Hopefully that is the end of the problems. Thanks to all who helped and offered tips.


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:36 pm 
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Clogged screen...that's a first (at least that I've heard). You might want to run another 10 quarts through that car before driving it any length of distance. You might also consider an oil analysis (though I'm sure more money is not what you want to throw at the car).
Anywho, glad to hear she's alive. How were those valves, Jerry? Have you done a compression test since getting the car running properly?

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:50 am 
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I have not performed a compression check but the valve train is so quiet and the car runs so good, I dont plan on doing any more. The way it is running I dont think there is any damage to the head, and if there was, I dont want to know about it!! This car was a mental nightmare for me, but it is now finally repaired and as much as I love my Snap On box full of "toys" I do not want to even see it for quite a while now.


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:13 pm 
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Mat wrote:
Anywho, glad to hear she's alive. How were those valves, Jerry? Have you done a compression test since getting the car running properly?

jerryrom wrote:
I have not performed a compression check but the valve train is so quiet and the car runs so good, I dont plan on doing any more. The way it is running I dont think there is any damage to the head, and if there was, I dont want to know about it!! This car was a mental nightmare for me, but it is now finally repaired and as much as I love my Snap On box full of "toys" I do not want to even see it for quite a while now.

The odds are, you don't have any bent valves then.....
If the car runs great, idles smoothly, and has no power loss, you are fine.

Consider yourself very lucky, to have not bent anything. :good:

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:14 pm 
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this post helped me a lot. i had the same problem on a friend's 2nd gen. just popped the sprocket off tonight and there was the pin laying in it's place in the sprocket. hopefully i'll be just as lucky and not bend anything.


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:00 am 
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I am glad it helped. I hope others find my pain usefull to them as well. I have to admit, this was a mind bender but it worked out in the end and I hope it saves others from going through what I did. I did get to converse with a lot of nice people in here throughout the journey. What a great resource this forum is!


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:26 am 
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OMG! Im having the same problem with my 2000 Dodge Neon. When cam is plugged it doesn't start. When the cam is unplugged it runs. Thanks for this post. Im going to try what you did tonight!


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:08 pm 
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please help little blue neon won't start with cam sensor plugged up runs unplugged new head took care of knocking when cold what do i do can anyone help my lihttp://forums.neons.org/posting.php?m ... 31888#ttle car :dunno:


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:11 pm 
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can any one help me with my neon cant fix i have tried evey thing what do ido runs with out cam plugged in


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:55 pm 
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You guys should be starting threads of your own instead of mucking up this one. :ireful:

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:22 pm 
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malisa1neon wrote:
can any one help me with my neon cant fix i have tried evey thing what do ido runs with out cam plugged in

I dont mean to be harsh but if you cannot even type I dont know how you are going to fix your car. I think you meant to say:
Can anyone help me with my neon? I cannot fix it. I have tried everything. The car runs without the cam sensor plugged in.

Have you looked at the wires for the sensor?
Have you replaced the sensor?
Are you sure its the cam sensor? (Had to ask)

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:31 am 
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ok then. i've read the posts and i am left wondering. is this "cam pin" easy to get if i need one? dealer or j/y only part? {insert pics here of repair} :good: also the factory part number would be cool in case any one needs to buy one as well. just my .02 cents on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:40 am 
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Fair enough.
No, it isn't easy to get to. It is a pin that is pressed into the cam (sticks out about 1/4") at the factory and it helps you locate the cam gear onto the cam, to keep it in proper orientation while you torque the cam gear retaining bolt. When it shears (often due to improper torquing of said bolt), the cam must be removed from the engine, then the pin drilled out and replaced with new pinstock. Most machine shops can do this procedure, most owners cannot. I don't know what the dealer P/N is but it pretty much wouldn't do you any good even if you knew it--the pinstock must generally be larger than OEM. Frankly, it might even be cheaper to replace the cam altogether with a used one that has an intact pin.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:12 am 
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Mat wrote:
Frankly, it might even be cheaper to replace the cam altogether with a used one that has an intact pin.

Less stress also. Id rather change a cam Vs. repair a cam.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:39 pm 
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check cam to crank timing. and reset if needed. if timing is off car wont start.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:53 pm 
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You resurrected a solved thread...why?

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:56 am 
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oh leaf spring juice yea. ah the joys of working night shift. next time i will read the post date.LOL :dunno:

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:06 pm 
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I have the same problem. The engine light came on so i took it to oreily's to have it diagnosed. Turned out to be the cam sensor. I put in a new sensor then it wouldnt start. I unplugged the sensor and now it starts. Did anyone ever find out what exactly is the problem? I would very much appreciate any help i can get.


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:11 pm 
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kneecap62 wrote:
I have the same problem. The engine light came on so i took it to oreily's to have it diagnosed. Turned out to be the cam sensor. I put in a new sensor then it wouldnt start. I unplugged the sensor and now it starts. Did anyone ever find out what exactly is the problem? I would very much appreciate any help i can get.


Try reading about a dozen posts up. But it's possible your new cam sensor is DOA.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:19 pm 
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Sorry I dont check the board often. I had this happen on a Friends Eclipse 2gnt. For whatever reason (he denies having the gear not tightened properly) the cam pin sheered and the gear rotated. Exact same condition you described.

I was pointing at sensor failure after we verified proper voltages and grounds. I dont have a Vantage to Scope the Cam Sensor and sure enough a spare one didnt work either. It was pure chance we decided to check timing and when the dowel holes in the cams didnt line up with the marks in the gears........well a little light bulb went off sort to speak.

Glad to see you figured it out.

Terry

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:26 pm 
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i have been reading all these post,trying to fix my neon. i have replaced cam and crank sensors, check the timing again, and pulled the cam sprocket off to see if the pin was gone but its not! I replaced the wiring harness still doing the same thing. Can anyone help me out? the only thing i can think of now is to replace the computer were the wiring harness plugs in. Any help would be great! thanks


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:33 pm 
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cmonk wrote:
i have been reading all these post,trying to fix my neon. i have replaced cam and crank sensors, check the timing again, and pulled the cam sprocket off to see if the pin was gone but its not! I replaced the wiring harness still doing the same thing. Can anyone help me out? the only thing i can think of now is to replace the computer were the wiring harness plugs in. Any help would be great! thanks


That's great...but you have not at all described what the car is doing or not doing, just that you've spent money and time on it.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:05 pm 
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The car had 13 bent valves, replaced the head with one from a 2004 motor.
The car will run with out the cam sensor plugged in. But dies if I plug it in.
Its getting the right volts to the plug just won't saying running when the plug is plugged in


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:46 pm 
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What year is your car? I would bet 2000-2002 right? You probably have the wrong cam sensor magnet. The 2003 and up cars use a different one than the earlier ones.

Here is how to tell:

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The early one on the right has 4 lines. The later one on the left has a dozen or so lines.

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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:49 am 
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Yes my neon is a 2000. The head I put on was from a 2004. Someone yesterday told me the same thing about the different magnets. So I got a magnet from a 2000 put it in and now I got a crank sensor code. Now the car wonnt start at all. The crank sensor is only two weeks old. This car is driving me crazy!


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 Post subject: Re: No start unless cam sensor unplugged
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:49 am 
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The car is fixed now!!! It did have the wrong magnet in it. And I. Had to replace the crank sensor again.
Thanks for the advice.


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