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 Post subject: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:21 pm 
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First of all this is my first time using this site. I have a 2002 Neon base model(Manual Transmission) that is having some problems.
I bought the car a year ago from a private person and the car ran beautifully.
After about three months the car started acting strange.
Here is the problem and only sometimes (doesn't make a difference whether it is cold or warm). My car will sometimes bog down under acceleration (all gears), pop out of the intake when pushing on gas, and just plain feels like it is going no where. This is the only way that I know how to explain what I feel. Like I said it only occurs sometimes and not at a specific temp. Also the bogging does go away at higher RPM's.
All of the mechanics that I have gone to tell me to wait until a check engine light comes on but I am getting to annoyed to wait any longer.
We always keep the car tuned up plus we have replaced the :
Throttle position sensor
IAC motor
Timing Belt
Crank Sensor
Camshaft position sensor
PCV valve
Coil Pack
Manifold Gaskets
Tube Seals
Purge solenoid
Tested wires
Numerous spark plugs, wires once
I have also had the compression tested, fuel pressure tested, cat tested, and a smoke test done to look for vacuum leaks.
Please let me know if you have any ideas
My next idea revolves around replacing the PCM?
Due to possible timing advanced problems?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:31 pm 
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How about a vacuum test ??
I am assuming that may have been done already, but if not, I'd like to hear what the 'dynamic' results are, on the road.

My thoughts are, that you may have a stuck intake valve, or an issue with the valvetrain, that is causing the issue. ( probably on the intake side. )



- Nick

_________________
-1995 4-dr SOHC ATX= "Organ Donor"
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:40 am 
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I have had a vacuum test done and they said no vacuum leaks, they performed the smoke test.
As for the intake valve I have had a compression test done and I had a shop look at the car and they seem to think that the valves are fine. Is that what you are referring to?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:22 pm 
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kt_boner wrote:
I have had a vacuum test done and they said no vacuum leaks, they performed the smoke test.
As for the intake valve I have had a compression test done and I had a shop look at the car and they seem to think that the valves are fine. Is that what you are referring to?

More or less, yes.... *but* .....


I have a friend who was having some similar weird issues, on his 2005 SXT.
After much agony and misdiagnosis, a local engine shop, finally determined that his issue was being caused by a sticking intake valve.
The valve problem was being caused by a collapsing (intake) lifter.
In other words, he had an intake valve that was not opening enough, or not at all ( the problem varied with RPM.)

I would try to confirm, that the backfiring that you are experiencing, really is in the intake, and not the exhaust.


- Nick

_________________
-1995 4-dr SOHC ATX= "Organ Donor"
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Okay I do have a lifter tick...could this be a sign as well.
I think that I have been going through the same misdiagnosis.
And I am pretty sure it is coming out of the intake because you can clearly hear it in front on the drivers side.
Do you think that the lifter tick could be part of the problem?
And second can the compression test come out good even with a sticky valve?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:51 pm 
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You didn't replace the MAP sensor or the PCV valve? Not that you should replace the MAP sensor, but the PCV valve is cheap - and usually does go bad at some point in time.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:06 pm 
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I did replace the PCV Valve but not the map sensor. Do you think that the map sensor would throw a code though?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Sometimes they do - sometimes they don't.

You do not have to wait for the MIL / CEL to come on. If you can get your hands on a GOOD code tool, you can read the "pending" codes. Those are codes that are not yet happening often enough or for a long enough period of time to become "set" - ie, turning on the light. Pending codes can sometimes tell you a lot about what is going on.

i can tell from your list of parts replaced that you have no idea (of any sort) as to what is wrong. Throwing parts at a problem is a very very expensive way to go about finding a solution. You need to learn how to do diagnostics, not just be a parts replacer. Doing the diags will save you both money and time.

A sticking valve may or may not show up on a compression test - to complicate matters, you have 2 intake and 2 exhaust valves per cylinder - one could be sticking some of the time or all of the time. From your symptoms I do not think it is a sticky valve.

Have you "cleaned" the throttle body - used something like Berrymans B-12 or Seafoam in a spray can? Or did a Seafoam treatment thru the power brake line or the PCV line? DO NOT do it thru the power brake vacuum line unless you are absolutly postitve that you know the proper procedure - do it wrong and you can ruin the power brake booster - NOT a good thing.

If you go out on a good stretch of road and floor it all the way to redline in first and hit second and do the same thing - take it to redline (you do not have to speed shift - and - watch the SPEED LIMITS and be safe) - what happens to the way the engine runs after the high RPM blast?? And for the next hour or two? Assuming you don't throw a rod.

BTW - don't run out and replace the MAP.. .


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:08 pm 
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WAIT !! Jim -
Spraying harsh chemicals such as carb cleaner, into the PLASTIC throttle body on a 2nd gen, can do permanent harm.
It can damage the special coating inside the T/B.

On the flip side, it is good hear that this might not be a valvetrain issue.
If it does turn out to be the valvetrain, that should be a fairly easy fix....assuming it is only the lifters or rocker shafts.
If it is the valve itself, then that's a bigger challenge.

- Nick

OhioHomesteader wrote:
A sticking valve may or may not show up on a compression test - to complicate matters, you have 2 intake and 2 exhaust valves per cylinder - one could be sticking some of the time or all of the time. From your symptoms I do not think it is a sticky valve.

Have you "cleaned" the throttle body - used something like Berrymans B-12 or Seafoam in a spray can? Or did a Seafoam treatment thru the power brake line or the PCV line? DO NOT do it thru the power brake vacuum line unless you are absolutly postitve that you know the proper procedure - do it wrong and you can ruin the power brake booster - NOT a good thing.

If you go out on a good stretch of road and floor it all the way to redline in first and hit second and do the same thing - take it to redline (you do not have to speed shift - and - watch the SPEED LIMITS and be safe) - what happens to the way the engine runs after the high RPM blast?? And for the next hour or two? Assuming you don't throw a rod.

BTW - don't run out and replace the MAP.. .

_________________
-1995 4-dr SOHC ATX= "Organ Donor"
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 3:31 pm 
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NickKo wrote:
WAIT !! Jim -
Spraying harsh chemicals such as carb cleaner, into the PLASTIC throttle body on a 2nd gen, can do permanent harm.
It can damage the special coating inside the T/B.


Nick

THANKS Nick!! I forgot that it is a 2nd gen!! :sorry:

Everything else applies tho.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:04 pm 
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If it were a sticky valve would it make sense that it would temp. fix the problem at higher RPM's


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:06 pm 
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More to that post...I mean when it is bogging and snaps out at high RPM's, would that be a symptom of a sticky valve?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:22 pm 
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kt_boner wrote:
More to that post...I mean when it is bogging and snaps out at high RPM's, would that be a symptom of a sticky valve?
Nope.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:40 pm 
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okay do you have any ideas on what to do now?
I have cleaned out the t/b the correct way.
Also sometimes when it is bogging down it stutters or cuts out if you may call it that.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:19 pm 
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kt_boner wrote:
okay do you have any ideas on what to do now?
I have cleaned out the t/b the correct way.
Also sometimes when it is bogging down it stutters or cuts out if you may call it that.

If the problem is that bad, I'd be really surprised, if there are no codes.
Are you getting any ??

1 ). Do you know how to check for codes ?? ( Look up the 'key dance' )

2 ). Better yet, is if you have access to a scanner - Those might be able to 'pull out' codes, that might not show up with the regular 'key dance' method.

I'm reluctant to suggest changing the PCM in the *hope* that it will magically fix the problem, because it probably won't.
PCM's generally work, or they don't work at all, if they fail.
Something else is causing this, that is being overlooked.


- Nick

_________________
-1995 4-dr SOHC ATX= "Organ Donor"
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:18 pm 
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I would recommend that you hold off on swapping the pcm, because if it is bad, whatever caused it to go bad will kill the new one. As Nickko said, the cause might be something that got overlooked.
Try pulling the 'P' codes, they'll point to where the problem is. When you do get the codes, post them, we'll try to help you as much as we can.
One common cause of many problems is the wiring. Especially if the car is more than 5-10 years old.

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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Well the problem is getting worse and when it happens it is annoying because it is really hard to increase speed. It is something that we would like to get fixed.
When it runs bad it really does run bad.
I know how to do the "key dance" and I have had a Snap on code scanner on my car multiple times. It has pulled up a few codes like battery disconnected in last 50 starts, and the code came up for me to replace my purge solenoid. There has also been a code for my coil pack but that was after it was unplugged and the coil pack was replaced.
I am not going to change anything was just hoping to get a few tips on what areas to concentrate on.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:30 pm 
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kt_boner wrote:
Well the problem is getting worse and when it happens it is annoying because it is really hard to increase speed. It is something that we would like to get fixed.
When it runs bad it really does run bad.
I know how to do the "key dance" and I have had a Snap on code scanner on my car multiple times. It has pulled up a few codes like battery disconnected in last 50 starts, and the code came up for me to replace my purge solenoid. There has also been a code for my coil pack but that was after it was unplugged and the coil pack was replaced.
I am not going to change anything was just hoping to get a few tips on what areas to concentrate on.


- Definitely look at the purge solenoid wiring and the hoses for the system for damage.
I rather doubt, that this will cause your problem or fix it, but it may be contributing and making things worse.

- Something else that I would like to know:
How are the condition of the spark plugs ?? Are they 'fluffed' with carbon ?? ( indicating a rich condition ) Or are they clean and maybe looking like they are overheated ?? Or fuel fouled ? ( This would give us an idea, how the fuel is being burned or not )

- Here is where I disagree with Ohio, 'in theory':
I think that it is possible, that this could be valvetrain-related, but only intermittent.

- There could also be a wiring harness issue.
This, is not so scary as it sounds. To remove the engine /sensor harness in a Neon, is actually quite easy. Everything unplugs.
Once it is out of the car and on your scam for you table, it is much easier to inspect & repair any damage.

Other possibilities: ( in no particular order )
- Oil contamination or some other damage, to the MAP sensor
- An O2 sensor that is defective or shorting intermittently, throwing off fuel trims - Also check the wiring going to the o2, very carefully !!
- BATTERY TERMINALS. Be sure they are CLEAN, and tight.
- Bad grounds. Bad grounds on a Neon, will cause it to act like it is possessed.

Speaking of grounds: The leads that attach near the headlamps, on the upper radiator support, are the grounds for the fuel drivers and some other functions in the PCM, as well as some accessories. They are CRITICAL.
Unscrew the lugs, wirebrush them clean, then clean the attachment point down to Bare metal.
After reattaching them, coat them in a Heavy coat of dielectric grease or Mobil One grease. ( to stop corrosion )
Don't try to start the car, OR operate any accesories, while these grounds are disconnected, or you'll be sorry. ( I was.)


- Nick

_________________
-1995 4-dr SOHC ATX= "Organ Donor"
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:58 am 
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Fuel injectors or spark plug gap? Backfiring out the intake make me think a valvetrain problem, but that should show up on a leakdown test I think.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:29 am 
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AyBlinken wrote:
Backfiring out the intake make me think a valvetrain problem, but that should show up on a leakdown test I think.

Maybe not, if there's a lifter that sticks only 'intermittently'.
At least, that is what I am thinking.

- Nick

_________________
-1995 4-dr SOHC ATX= "Organ Donor"
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:23 am 
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How are your plug wires routed?? As per the FSM? Just curious.

Did you try the full throttle run to redline yet?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Okay the spark plugs turn a reddish, brick color when it is running bad.
As for the reline they are trying that now


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:37 pm 
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They just got back from redlining it. Nothing out of the ordinary happened when they did it although after wards it because to run bad.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:13 pm 
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*began


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Could a faulty upstream O2 sensor cause this? If it caused the car to run rich would it bog down like that at low rpms?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:58 am 
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kt_boner wrote:
Okay the spark plugs turn a reddish, brick color when it is running bad.

Thanks for the 'feedback'.
That sounds like unburned fuel flooding the plugs, to me.

I suppose it may be possible, that a bad o2 sensor might give the PCM the wrong 'reading' and cause it to overcompensate by dumping in too much fuel.
I am not blaming the O2 sensor yet, however.

How about your CTS ? ( Coolant Temp Sensor ) I noticed that it's not on your list of sensors or parts that you have already replaced.
That will affect fuel trims for sure. Maybe check the wiring going to it, or try switching it out with a spare from the junkyard, to see if that changes anything ??


- Nick

_________________
-1995 4-dr SOHC ATX= "Organ Donor"
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= UDP, Kirk Intake
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; Magnaflow muffler

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. (TRADED for '83 Ddg.Rampage)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Yes we have replaced the CTS, sorry about that. I guess now we will go to checking the wires that goes to the CTS and the O2 sensor. What voltage should we be getting?
And what is the difference in the O2 sensor?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Also, I forgot one other very important thing. I burn oil, I DO NOT LEAK OIL I BURN OIL.
It does not ever burn the same amount of oil in a specified period of time. This last it burnt 2 quarts in about a month. In that time period we drive over 500 miles long distance.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Hello can any one still help?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:25 pm 
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You said you had the wires checked. I assume that means plug wires? How old are the plug wires? Popping/backfiring through the intake is a classic sign of bad plug wires.

When it is dark outside, open the hood, start the car, and stomp the gas pedal (quick! and let off). Do you see any lightning/sparks under the hood? Does the car run worse on cold or wet days? Does it run worse if you take a plant sprayer and mist the spark plug wires with water?

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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:34 am 
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i just replaced the spark plug wires and spark plugs.
What would misting water on there do?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:31 pm 
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kt_boner wrote:
i just replaced the spark plug wires and spark plugs.
What would misting water on there do?


That is what I was asking (maybe not clearly). If you didn't replace the wires test them like above. I missed the place where you said that you had replaced them.

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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Did you do a leakdown test?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:33 pm 
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I need to get a leakdown tester. Then I will let you know.


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:11 am 
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Change the upstream O2. I bet it's voltages are not changing. I see it all the time here in Wisconsin.

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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:34 pm 
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What is the meaning of "upstream"? Is there 2 O2 sensors


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:46 pm 
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yes there are 2 o2 sensors, 1 on the top of exhaust manifold and another near the catalitic converter

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95 nyg sport coupe, 2.4 swapped...amm no 90, p@p upper intake, accel 24# injectors, tti long tube header, trubenz 2.5 mandrel bent piping, bbk vari tune muffler, p@p head, crower stage 4's crower springs,fidanza cam gears, centerforce dual friction clutch, aem wideband, safc 2


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 11:58 am 
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Neon Enthusiast

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:02 pm
Posts: 37
another question? can your cat get clogged then unclogged? I ask this because everyone once in a while after I drive and it is running bad I can smell rotten eggs. Although a couple shops have said that my cat is fine.
About the o2 sensor. should i just replace it or should I be checking it. How many volts should it be getting?


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Neon Enthusiast
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:40 pm
Posts: 1320
Location: fredericton new brunswick,canada
i would replace the upper o2, if you want to check your cat converter and see if it is clogged drill a 1/8 hole an inch before the cat, get a friend to go under the car while its idling and put his hand just infront of the hole and rev the car a bit, if you feel alot of exhaust being pushed through, it is clogged, if it doesnt push out the hole so hard it is fine, weld the hole closed

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95 nyg sport coupe, 2.4 swapped...amm no 90, p@p upper intake, accel 24# injectors, tti long tube header, trubenz 2.5 mandrel bent piping, bbk vari tune muffler, p@p head, crower stage 4's crower springs,fidanza cam gears, centerforce dual friction clutch, aem wideband, safc 2


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 Post subject: Re: What Is Wrong With My Neon?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Neon Enthusiast

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:02 pm
Posts: 37
So the upper o2 sensor is the one located next to the exhaust manifold?


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