www.neons.org

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378048

^^ link to the improved hydraulic system by ragetek, they also have a master cylinder, but i havent seen pictures of it yet.

Heres a walk around video of our swap

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/e04b ... 67f4f2.htm

Hey there sparky, I was on your side. I apologize for not giving you a reacharound while I was typing.

By the way, I have done the tranny swap, try not to be so defensive...

It was toward Vitor. Dale I sent you some pics.

I missed the wheel well and pedal box close-ups. Which Brake booster (Neon or SRT-4), which pedal assembly (SRT-4 or Neon), and did you use the OEM brake booster location (the OEM holes int he firewall?

Thanks,
Dale

Got'em, thanks

Why did you offset the clutch master cylinder so far? I'm pretty sure there is room between the Brake booster and the sheetmetal just below the OEM clutch cable hole. If it is kept close enough to the brake booster, it won't interfere with the strut tower either....

Of course, easier said than done....

I've been talking to Nemo about this and am pretty sure I'm using his setup. My biggest worry is needing a throwout bearing in Newfoundland, so I'll have to pick up spare parts.

This is turning into the best part of the project. Of course, I seem to say that about every part of it that requires some thought...

We had space it out so far in order to get full engaugement and disengagement of the clutch pedal. It has a lot to do with where the clutch pedal is modified.

Why is the clutch pedal modified? Are you using OEM First Gen Pedal box or SRT-4 pedal box?

look at the pic on the first page under the dash. we are using the 1st gen pedals, the clutch pedal needs a hole drilled in it based on where the cm is located to get full movement of the pedal. To finalize it we used lock nuts on the bolt by the pedal and by the cm itself.

Ahh.. I see...

That makes sense now....

With the SRT-4 pedal set, there is room for the clutch master cylinder in the engine compartment next to the brake master cylinder. I've finally mocked it up outside the car.

With the SRT-4 pedals, clearanced into the wiper cowl and spaced from the firewall by .75", the OEM brake booster remains in the original location. The Clutch MC mounts directly to the firewall, just above the centerline of the Brake Booster, just clear of the outside diameter of the brake booster.

This allows full pedal travel without adjusting the firewall/floorpan and SRT-4 OEM (nearly) geometry.

So far we have four very different install methods resulting in fairly similar results.

1) With the T-350 tranny remaining in the car, the OEM pedal box and cable actuator also remain without modification. (Len)

2) With the OEM pedal box reamining in the car, and a T-850 tranny installed, the OEM clutch pedal can be modified to actuate the clutch master cylinder. Because of the low pivot point (orginally a 'pull' system), the Clutch Master Cylinder appears to require relocation into the fender well in order to gain the proper amount of throw (push) from the pedal. The OEM Brake Booster location is retained. (lepolesconcepts)

3) With the SRT-4 Pedal Assembly and the T-850 tranny, the problem becomes Pedal Assembly Geometry. One solution is to mount the pedal box without modification to the pedal box, clearancing the firewall and floor with a hammer where required. The SRT-4 Brake Booster is used in this example, because the distance between the Booster body and the end of the acutation rod (at the pedal) is .75" shorter than the OEM Neon Brake Booster. The SRT-4 Brake Booster is relocated, lowered, on the firewall. The Clutch Master Cylinder mounting is unclear in this case, there are no good images available to evaluate. I estimate that part of the driverside fenderwell will require clearancing to allow the Clutch MC to install properly with respect to the pedal box. Firewall and floorpan adjustments are not well documented, I estimate that at a minimum, clearancing is required for the pedals along the 'arm' and at the 'foot'. It appears that extensive modification to the firewall/fenderwell will be needed for the Clutch MC install. (The is the "SRTforums '98srt2dr'" install.)

#4 (Uncomplete at this time) The SRT-4 pedal box and T-850 tranny are used. Differences in Neon vs SRT-4 pedal box geometry is made up in the passenger cabin. When the OEM Neon Brake Booster is used, the pedal box must be spaced away from the firewall by .75". To keep the OEM Booster location, the pedal box must move upward approximately .75" into the dash metal. This requires cutting and welding. Moving the pedal box does mean that the firewall/floorpan do not require clearancing for pedal travel. It appears that an area of firewall that 'bumps out' to the fenderwell sheetmetal will require cutting and smoothing to the same plane as the remainder of the firewall.

Each method has it's own problems, either in fabrication, or longterm integrity. It's interesting that one of the biggest problems that must be overcome really has nothing to do with hanging the engine/tranny or making it start and run....

Success!

.75" is the magic number in the first gen to SRT-4 conversion.

Full pedal travel, OEM Brake Booster location, Clutch Master Cylinder located right next to the Brake Booster.

I still need to weld up a new floor in the wiper cowl, and cut a prettier spacer on the CNC, but the concept has been proven out.

This is probably the most difficult way to attain the end result, short of using Lego Blocks, but I think it is also the cleanest as a finished product.

Unfortunately (for others) it requires a total disassembly of the dash to get to the area that needs cutting. It also would probably mess up the air plenum that feeds fresh air to the HVAC system. One would have to remember to seal the area cut into before installing the pedal box.

I'm going to give Nemo's hydraulic throwout bearing a try. It doesn't cost much more than the stock parts I need to buy anyway.

The next project in the project also deals with the T-850 tranny. The SRT-4 axles are about 10 mm (a little less than 1/2") when using SRT-4 or PT Turbo knuckles. The axles fit in fine, but will self destruct on the track or autocross as the tripods are compressed. It's my understanding that they work fine on a daily driver or drag car, don't misunderstand me and assume I am saying that people are not currently using them without trouble.

I'm planning to use PT Turbo knuckles to avoid having to make steering geometry changes, and they accept the stock SRT-4 axles in the hub splines. My intention is to convince Nemo to produce a set of adjustable control arms that allow me to lengthen the distance between the hub and the K-Member. By creating camber that way (I want 3.0 degrees anyway) I believe that the axle length problem will be solved at the same time. Once I have the lengths determined from experimentation, Nemo can build a set of control arms that are the correct length for this application.

I appreciate all the help I have been receiving from people who have performed their own swaps, and people who are preparing for them. There are many ways to reach the goals, understanding everybody elses way makes it easier for me to determine mine.

Regards,
Dale

Has the possibillity of using First gen. European Hydraulics ever been tried or even considered?

It's been suggested, so it's been considered. It's not on my list of options because it uses parts that are not easily purchased through the dealership network in the States.

I believe it would be the most elegant solution by far, in terms of ease of install and fitment, but spare parts availablity worry me. It won't be long before first gen parts are not available new. Obsolete Euro parts could be a nightmare.

For a daily driver, I would risk the parts availability.

Dale

I am thinking about doing this swap or going built auto. I am just wondering which parts I would all need to make this swap happen. Here is a list of what I think I would need.

-The t-850 tranny
-flex plate (I have a CM twin disc clutch already)
-Starter (do I need it or can I use my 1st gen starter?)
-Passenger side axle (I can use my dss stage 3 drivers side axle, right?)
-tranny mount (needs to be modded I assume)
-the complete hydraulic system
-The pedal assembly for a srt (if I want to go that route)

I know the k frame has to be modded. Did you just hack away at it and reinforce it after? Or did you actually have to lower the k frame a little? Also do you have pics of your clutch master cylinder mounted in the engine compartment? I don't think I have room because of all my MS custom wiring.

Kframe does not require hacking or lowering. Install the engine correctly and you won't have a problem.

Once the Clutch MC install has been cleaned up a little, I'll post pictures.

yep the parts are already starting to get discontinued and harder to find..

I told you guys the Srt trans will fit in the 1st Gen... This is Christi3435. Didnt realize I was signed into Purple's account oops Sorry Russ.

That's cuz you're on my laptop.

Jesus Purp's got an entourage

or multiple personalities....or some REALLY good purple...

Our setup is now track tested. 12.9 @ 107
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/f81f ... 8621d3.htm

heh, getting the transmission in is no problem, the common bellhousing bolt pattern, clutch location and mounting methods ensure that. Any first gen hack should be able to accommodate that

Getting a clean clutch actuation install is the difficult part. That's when it becomes something other than a straight swap...

And that's with a basically stock SRT-4 engine, and street tires, right?
I think you're the first to run the engine tranny swap down the 1/4 mile.

What happens when you combine a 15 second car and a 14 second engine/tranny combo? 13 seconds.... That's not bad math...

that run was on slicks 24.5 x 8.5 x 15 M&H. Other mods include 3" exhaust depot o2 housing custom 3" side exit exhaust, Ebay cold air intake, ported intake manifold, throttle body and turbo manifold, AGP Wastegate 22psi hold 17psi to redline.

You'll run faster without the AGP wastegate actuator... The PCM is pulling timing and/or adding fuel to accomodate the loss of control of the wastegate.

WTB: Pics

And ffs please sticky this here or in archives, there is a lot of good information!

Stickied. Dale, you have a PM.

Did my "find" help out any Matt? If so I'll call Dale and tell him too.

So I was under the Neon tonight doing all the oily undercarriage crap when i noticed something.

Dale mentioned having to notch the cowl to clear the master. There's a notch in the passenger cowl already.

Dale, does this correspond roughly to the size of the notch you had to take out of the cowl?

We have an extra car in the yard, and i'm just wonderin' if I should plasma that bump out from the junk car to graft into my firewall.

So, strangeness creeps up. Last week I ordered a 2gen hydro clutch master/slave assembly from "FostersNC" on here.

It showed up a couple nights ago. Once I pieced it all together, I've got a REALLY interesting piece. I was looking at the pics of that RHD South African race neon, and it had a remote master cylinder resevoir. The res was on the shock tower, and I could just barely see a long black cyl out behind teh motor.

Wait. What I have looks like that, too! Hrm. I'm thinking they raided the parts bin for the 2g cars, and 2g Hydro is really really close to 1g export. I wish the link hadn't been nuked, there were some great pics there and I can't find the site, but check this out.





It's all labelled with Chrysler part numbers... and AP (of AP Racing fame) logos everywhere! Explain that to me. Wierd no?





Unfortunately the cylinder is too long to fit behind the shocktower. Neopreza Jason and I were talking and we thought about linkaging it and leaving the clutch master in the car with the resivoir outside. Mount the master any way we need, and go to town. I think I came up with an easier solution though. See the pin on the side of the clutch pedal? I think i'm gonna move it further into the cabin and then bolt the master to a bracket welded to the pedalbox and run the end of the master into the engine bay so all the fittings are in the engine bay, but the master itself is inside. Grommet and mastic the gap, and badabing, badaboom, I believe.

Thoughts, ideas? Dale, does this pedal bracket look ANYTHING like your SRT bracket? I'm wondering if i'll still need to make the .75" spacer you needed.

Without measurements, I would venture to guess that the SRT-4 and export parts are the same. A convienent test for the spacer, common 1" lumber is actually .75" thick, two strips to space the pedal assembly away from the firewall, use the original bolt holes, and you'll find it all fits.

Of course, there is that pesky HVAC passageway inside the dash to get in the way.

Dale

That's surmountable. Thanks for the verification man. Sounds like a preemptive spacing is in order.

... or not.

I actually retrofitted the 2g pin/geometry to the 1g pedal. I ground off the backside of the pin, drilled a hole at the right distance on the 1g to = 2g geometry and inserted the 2g pin on the 1g pedals.

No spacing.
No denting the floorboard.
I'm going to be running the master cyl "backwards" inside the cabin.

I didnt understand any of that, must use pics, I read pop up books as a kid.





ok, not really, cant wait for pics

Pics of the repin are in my project log. Pics of the remainder of the bracket should be up tomorrow/wednesday. I'll getcha the cardboard-paged version.

Got it done. Now I just need lines.

So, I made a bracket that mounts to the steering column, roughly parallel to it. The pedal distance was already set by the repinning of the pedal. I bolted this bracket under the column, and the master clips into it just like it would the firewall bracket. The business end of the master is roughly right behind the left-side cluster plug in the dash.

The remote resevoir for the clutchmaster will live on the shocktower. I need to make a custom line to the trans and get a longer brakefluid safe line for the master.

I Put my brake MC on the firewall right beside the booster and used a rod end to connect it to the clutch pedal
Would post pics but this site is to much a pain in the a$$ to post them unless someone can tell me how to just to post them from my hard drive instead of a web site[/img]

has anyone figured out a way to lower the car with the t850 axles, im about to the point of having a tubular kmember made so i can lower my car

any ideas are welcome

i had no problem with that i just got the D2 RS Coilovers and they work great only have had them for three weeks though but car is lower nothing rubs and i have the srt 4 engine and tranny swap in mine