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 Post subject: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:35 pm 
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i swapped a 04 srt4 motor into my 1gen...ok so i've been sitting on this for a couple days now trying to figure it out and i can't hopefully you guys can help me out..i go to start the car and it cranks but doesn't turn over.. i spray starter fluid in the tb and it runs and only keeps running if i keep spraying the fluid in the tb..i'm getting fuel all the way to the fuel rail.. im getting spark..don't really understand why.. the injectors i don't think are clogged because they came out of a perfectly fine running car where my buddy upgraded his injectors so i bought his stock ones because i didn't get any with the swap.. don't really know what else to test at all..hopefully you guys can help me out :good:

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:40 am 
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Means you aren't getting any fuel. Might want to just check the injector pulse with a node.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:35 pm 
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what fuel rail are you using? the black 1st gen ones are prone to rusting and could clog injectors.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:36 pm 
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its the srt4 fuel rail..

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:47 pm 
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You say you bought your friends injectors but what did they come out of? Wondering if the impedence is correct?

You should have constant voltage on the positve side (key on engine off) since the computer provides a ground to complete the circuit if I remember correctly. If you don't have an injector test kit (node light) I would at least check to see if you have voltage at the injectors using a multimeter.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:25 am 
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you are correct, injectors have constant voltage and the PCM grounds them. could be a problem on the ground side though too, best is to go spend a few bucks and get a noid light

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fuel-Inj ... veQ5fTools

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:35 am 
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I'd think you'd have to jumper out the ASD relay to test it like that wouldn't you? I thought the ASD only stayed live a couple of seconds unless you cranked the engine.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:31 am 
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Isn't an 04 a NGC motor?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:15 am 
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As are all SRT motors... that's why you have to swap the PCM and wiring.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:03 pm 
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PurpleNeon wrote:
As are all SRT motors... that's why you have to swap the PCM and wiring.


I re-read his post and he didn't mention if he swapped harness and ECU. Makes me wonder if he swapped motor and tried using 1st gen ECU?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Okay, if he was trying to run an SRT motor off a 1st gen PCM, it would not fire and run, starter fluid or not, the PCM would have no clue what to do with the crank signal, therefore would not be able to run the ignition... no spark, no fire, no way.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 10:12 pm 
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i am using the srt4 pcm and harness and everything..

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:11 pm 
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ok so i checked the injectors and they are fine.. my buddy thinks it could be the cam sensor? is this true?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:06 am 
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NGC will start, but only rev to ~2500 with a faulty cam signal... I'm thinking w/o any cam signal it won't start tho... so maybe if you had no cam signal at all.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:12 pm 
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how do i test that?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:08 pm 
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Swap in a known good cam sensor. The cam magnets changed for NGC, but the sensor didn't. My '04 PT got a bad cam sensor, and I swapped on a 1st gen Neon one I had around... worked perfectly.

Also check all the cam sensor wiring with a multimeter.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:13 pm 
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ok so i brought it to a swap and the only thing they could figure out is that it keeps popping the auto shutdown fuse.. they didn't want to get into the wiring part of it.. because the guy said it could be the pcm is no good or because the wiring or the skim box is no good..anyway to test to see if the pcm or skim box is no good to know it is the wiring?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:41 pm 
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Not sure about the skim box or PCM but there are a few wire issues you can check that would cause fuse to blow. I know a crank sensor wire grounding on back of block caused me to blow a fuse in the engine compartment. Don't remember if it was the ASD fuse though. Also I believe a bad O2 wire causes a fuse to blow in there as well but I think that was a fuel pump fuse. Could be wrong. I'm at work so I can't pull up wire diagrams but if you find the ASD in the diagram then just follow the wire to see what else is on the circuit. Check those as well.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:53 pm 
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That causes the fuel pump fuse to blow, which also powers the PCM... the ASD is a relay.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:52 pm 
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oh ok.. well i talked to the guy again and he said when he doesn't plug in the engine plug into the pcm it doesn't blow.. i'm pretty sure thats what he had told me..

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:03 am 
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bbawla6 wrote:
oh ok.. well i talked to the guy again and he said when he doesn't plug in the engine plug into the pcm it doesn't blow.. i'm pretty sure thats what he had told me..


So it only blows when the PCM is pluged into the harness? Not sure since I run MSII and haven't touched my PCM since MS install.

Edit: it's too early for me to be posting. A short to ground causes fuses to pop if my brain is working correctly. Need to wake up soon. The PCM provides the grounds for a few things so they work. I.E. the PCM provides grounds for the injectors to open. However what is confusing me is thing blows a fuse when it's plugged in. Heck maybe you do have a bad PCM. I would double check all wiring and then see if I could get a known good PCM to swap in. First check to see if your PCM smells burnt. Sometimes when you let factory smoke out it will smell.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:39 pm 
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anyone know if i was to bring it to dodge if they could tell me if the pcm is good or not? same with the skim box?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:55 pm 
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SuperD works with a DRBIII alot more then I do. He could answer that question.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:46 pm 
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they can tell you if the PCM is bad, but i dont think a bad PCM would do that.

a short to ground in the wiring there is. isolate the circuits powered by the ASD relay, test them one at a time, and find the short you will.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Or the PCM isn't getting proper inputs to keep the ASD engaged... you need to test the PCM control of the ASD 1st. If the SKIM isn't communicating with, or is telling the PCM not to run the engine, then...

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:37 pm 
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" you need to test the PCM control of the ASD 1st"

how do i do this?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:37 am 
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If you have a good DMM, you can check the pin for ground, and find out if the PCM is grounding the control (turning the ASD on) or not. If the PCM isn't pulling the ASD in, then it isn't the ASD wiring, the PCM is telling it not to run.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:50 pm 
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so then it could be either one of two things but correct me if i'm wrong.. then either the pcm or the skim box is bad?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:04 pm 
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Okay, this has gotten a bit goofy... and I just reread all of it. Will the vehicle still start as it did in the 1st post? If so...

a) the ASD has to be engaging, because it provides the hot to the coil... no ASD, no spark, no run on starter fluid.

b) the fuel pump fuse can't be blowing, because if it does there's no power to the PCM... no PCM, no run, starter fluid or not.

So if it runs as stated in the 1st post, you're just not getting injector control from the PCM.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:43 am 
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I was wondering about the blown fuse he was reporting from his machanic. Based off his original post about the starter fluid it sounds like it is an issue with injectors or no fuel from the pump.

If it's injectors then wouldn't a noid light show if the injector harness is working? Or even if he hooked a presure gauge to establish he has fuel at the rail. Then he just needs to do a pressure drop test using the the tool to energize the injector. If the injectors opened the pressure would drop right.

If the noid light shows power then it's not the harness or the PCM. He could use the pressure drop test tool to bypass the PCM to ensure the injectors themselves are working. That would help limit the problem areas.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:34 pm 
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ok well the car does run on starting fluid.. and i am getting fuel to the fuel rail and to the injectors the injectors just aren't opening and spitting the fuel into the motor.. and the injectors are good i know that for a fact.. so i will do the node test and see what happens and post it up...

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:56 pm 
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If you can't get a node light there is a way to find out if the injectors are spraying. I don't recommend it becuase it is a fire hazard. If you do use that method make sure you disable the coil pack. Nothing like igniting fuel vapors. :shock: Ask SuperD about it he was there.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:41 pm 
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myneonisbetterthenyours wrote:
Nothing like igniting fuel vapors. :shock: Ask SuperD about it he was there.


oh whatever. that was exciting!*


*because it wasnt my car

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:19 pm 
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It was exciting. Just glad I still have a car. :grin:

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:00 pm 
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ok so when i do it just disconnect the plug from the coil pack?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:54 am 
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It's just safer if you do disconnect the coil. If you want to see if the injector itself is working properly you need to do a fuel pressure drop test. For that just hook a pressure guage to the schrader valve and crank the motor over for a second or two to build fuel pressure. You will need an injector tester box (can't remember what it's called) then plug the harness from the box into one of your injectors. You'll hit the button on the box and it will energize the injector for just a Millisecond. Record the drop in pressure. Do that to each injector. All injectors should drop the same amount of pressure. If not you have an issue with one or more of your injectors. Also you do need to crank the motor over between each injector to build pressure back up. Ideally your pressure should build up to the same each time and the drop should be the same at each injector. Stock injectors from my DOHC dropped 10psi across the board.

I was referring to the time I had to see if the injectors were opening during priming and cranking without a node light. Forgot to disconnect the coil and the fuel vapors got into the cylinder. Started a small fire under the hood which we quickly put out.


Don't try that at home kids!

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:36 am 
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ok so i talked to my friend and he said that when my car went to his shop they tested the injectors with the node test and nothing hapened..?

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:26 am 
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bbawla6 wrote:
ok so i talked to my friend and he said that when my car went to his shop they tested the injectors with the node test and nothing hapened..?


Most likely a NOID test, failling that can be caused by,
No 12v power to injectors,
PCM not seeing motor turn over,
Injector drivers bad (inside PCM)

If the injector was being pulsed by an outside source and nothing happened it could be caused by
a bad / plugged injector
no fuel pressure

There is a sticky on no start check EVERYTHING detailed in that sticky

Plug your PCM into a running Neon and test it, do not plug a good PCM into your car, it my be ruined if there is a problem with your harness.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:14 pm 
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RicksNeon wrote:
bbawla6 wrote:
ok so i talked to my friend and he said that when my car went to his shop they tested the injectors with the node test and nothing hapened..?


Most likely a NOID test, failling that can be caused by,
No 12v power to injectors,
PCM not seeing motor turn over,
Injector drivers bad (inside PCM)

If the injector was being pulsed by an outside source and nothing happened it could be caused by
a bad / plugged injector
no fuel pressure

There is a sticky on no start check EVERYTHING detailed in that sticky

Plug your PCM into a running Neon and test it, do not plug a good PCM into your car, it my be ruined if there is a problem with your harness.


That is why I was recommending the fuel pressure drop test. With a pressure guage hooked up he will know if he is getting fuel UP TO the rail. The tester for this provides power and ground for the injector. You disconnect the factory injector harness and plug the tester in. It will energize the injector when he hits the button. If he has fuel pressure at the rail and the pressure doesn't drop he has injector issues. If he hooks guage up and has no pressure when he cranks he has fuel pump issues.

With the KOEO he should have source voltage at the injector. If not he has a voltage drop and needs to check that wire. If he has voltage I would then find the ground wires for the injectors and do a continuity check to ensure he has good grounds back to PCM. Should be easy since the injectors unplug and the PCM harness is two feet away. Just find the pins for the grounds and check them one by one.

One of the many reasons I like MS is the ability to see whether the computer gets a crank signal. However if his friend has a shop they may have a DRB or someother scanner and may be able to find crank and cam signals. That should tell them that at least the pcm is seeing them. If not start there. My crank signal wire was exposed and grounding out on the back of the head. kept popping a fuse. I looked and looked but couldn't find anything until SuperD had driven for an hour or so to come help me out. Just as he came around the corner I found the exposed piece. I still feel bad about that.

Rick brings up a very good point. Pull your PCM and put it in a know good running Neon SRT if you can find one. The other way around could cost another computer if there is a wiring issue.

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 Post subject: Re: cranks but only runs with starter fluid?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:22 pm 
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Which magnet did you use on your intake cam?
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=351456

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