Steering knuckle info sticky

Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:58 pm

First gen
  • These have a 23 spline hub
  • They are availible with 4 or 5 lug hubs
  • Both 4 and 5 bolt are 100mm bolt pattern
  • Cast #4626244-5 (4-Stud) (1995 and 1996)
  • Cast# 4626704-5 (5-Stud) (1995 and 1996)
  • The 95 to (1997?) originally had snap ring bearing retainers
  • The (1998?) and up got a plate type bearing retainer. Early models sometimes got these as part of a TSB (#02-02-97 Rev. A) to correct a popping noise.
  • Clevis width approximately 0.970"

Second Gen
  • These have 26 spline hubs
  • Will require an axle swap on first gen
  • Are 100mm bolt pattern
  • They require machining to fit first gen
  • Clevis width approximately 1.270"

Jewel Encrusted Piece of Poo
  • These have 26 spline hubs
  • They require machining to fit first gen
  • Allows use of larger brakes
  • Are 100mm bolt pattern
  • Clevis width approximately 1.270"
  • Will require cutting or changing to shorter inner tie rod ends

Shadow
  • These have 26 spline hubs
  • Will require an axle swap on first gen
  • They directly bolt onto to first gen
  • 1991 and up are the best ones. Older ones may fit (unconfirmed)
  • They have a bolt-in wheel bearing assembly
  • Most are 100mm bolt pattern but there are Caravan hubs which are 5x114.3
  • Brake caliper bracket bolts on
  • Allows use of larger brakes or stock Grocery Getter brakes with proper caliper bracket
  • Clevis width approximately 0.970"
  • Caution*** must use larger knuckle specific ball joint pinch bolt***

PT Cruiser
  • These have 26 spline hubs
  • LATE ’02 and up PT Cruiser N/A manual transmission car are the preferred units. Wrong ones will alter your turning radius.
  • Allows use of larger brakes
  • Will require an axle swap on first gen
  • They require machining to fit first gen
  • Are 100mm bolt pattern
  • Clevis width approximately 1.270"
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:00 pm

I would like to consolidate all this information in one place. Put your info below, I will revise my post to reflect any info anyone has. Hopefully we can clear the confusion a little bit.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby flylike2kites » Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:48 pm

*Subscribed for PURE AWESOMENESS!!!* :grin:

Hey...when did you become a mod...?
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Taylor@blackstarperformance » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:42 pm

since hes turned into a Grocery Getter guru lol this info woulda been super helpful for about a week ago but its cool
idk if ur gonna include hub info and that the bearing info as well?
which is help ful for running 2gn axles and dss
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby JeffB#2 » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:46 pm

All 26 spline hubs use the larger 2nd Gen / PT / "Shadow" / DriveShaftShop axles.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:58 pm

loroku wrote:idk if ur gonna include hub info and that the bearing info as well?
which is help ful for running 2gn axles and dss
taylor


The hub info is available here in other posts, but I suppose if it helps keep everything straight it could be added. You do not need to swap hubs for DSS axles if you just use the shadow knuckles.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Vitor » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:00 pm

2G also have vaarying turning circles by varying location of tie rod hole. Again, steel wheel variants are preferred, 36ft turn radius, where R/T had 39' and srt-4, a truck like 41'
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Taylor@blackstarperformance » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:59 pm

JeffB#2 wrote:All 26 spline hubs use the larger 2nd Gen / PT / "Shadow" / DriveShaftShop axles.

i was talking more about the fact that the 00 and 01 hubs run the 33mm thick bearing with the 42mm wide shaft so that in conjuction with the 00 or 01 bearing you can run them in 1gn knuckles thats all i was saying uptown had an awesome post from mnneons
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Vitor » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:10 pm

Some (if not all!) 00 and 01 axles are 23 splines.

I prefer 2003+ knuckles, guaranteed wide bearing (used srt-4 bearing, cheaper than regular 2G bearing - same as VrrrrOOOOOMMMMMMMMM pt, regular Pt, etc).
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:50 pm

Vitor wrote:Some (if not all!) 00 and 01 axles are 23 splines.


Can someone confirm those spline counts?

NAPAONLINE

EMPI

Autozone

and others all show 26 spline for 2000 and up. Those, and other sites also show interchange for all models between 2000 and 2005 except Jewel Encrusted Piece of Poo.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Vitor » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:03 pm

For example:

Axle Part No 4668952AE fits 2000 and 2001

For 2002, there is new Part No. 4668914AA that descriptions says 2002-2005

2003 shows addition of part #'s for srt-4 components.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:13 pm

I believe the difference of 00 and 01 to the 02+ is the width of the hub/wheel bearing and not the spline count.

The aftermarket seem to have a "fitzall" axle that is good for all these years.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:56 pm

I have told a few of you this, but it should be public knowledge.

There is a large advantage to running 91+ Shadow knuckles. The knuckle is taller, but only taller from the center of the wheel bearing down. It is about 1" longer in the area from the center of the wheel bearing to the balljoint.

This has advantages especially on lowered vehicles. This will bring the lower control arms more level with the steering linkage for reduced bump steer. It is similar to shimming the rack up like some people do.

The taller knuckle also helps roll center. That is something I do not completely understand, but lowering the lower control arm apparently acts like a lever that when cornering prevents body roll. In any case, many people (with different types of car) add balljoint extensions, do knuckle swaps, and relocate the control arm to accomplish this. Mustang and early Chevelle guys do this all the time to get better handling.

Examples of extensions.

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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby mopar318 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:15 am

Do you have any idea on how much the turning radius is affected using 01-early 02 pt knuckles?

I bought a set to machine down to use in my 98.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Vitor » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:51 pm

I believe increase height on early Ford knuckle is between axle center line and strut mount bracket - not below.

Here's a P-body setup

Image

Easily few lbs heavier than 1G Grocery Getter knuckle. Fresh outta bone yard - I swear someone had done the brakes week before it was totalled out!.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:04 pm

Shadow VS first gen.

Image

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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby wickedgoodneon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:08 pm

Image
Burks21 wrote:Because most Jewel Encrusted Piece of Poo owners now are broke teens or idiots looking to slam their car the cheapest way possible. So they buy crap off eBay, racelands, etc.


Feedback: http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=382275
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:10 pm

mopar318 wrote:Do you have any idea on how much the turning radius is affected using 01-early 02 pt knuckles?

I bought a set to machine down to use in my 98.


http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=288835
Knuckes from a manual transmission, steel wheel combo is desired as they have tie rod holes in most desirable location. As you move up in wheel size and go to VrrrrOOOOOMMMMMMMMM, the tie rod location is further out, increasing the turning circle to 41 feet, whereas the MTX/Steel wheel is in 36 foot range.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby mopar318 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:41 am

jimbo in MI wrote:
mopar318 wrote:Do you have any idea on how much the turning radius is affected using 01-early 02 pt knuckles?

I bought a set to machine down to use in my 98.


http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=288835
Knuckes from a manual transmission, steel wheel combo is desired as they have tie rod holes in most desirable location. As you move up in wheel size and go to VrrrrOOOOOMMMMMMMMM, the tie rod location is further out, increasing the turning circle to 41 feet, whereas the MTX/Steel wheel is in 36 foot range.


Mine appear to have come from a steel wheel car. I was just wondering what the different was between 01-02 and the later models. I will make sure to take pictures as I get them, machine them, and install on car.

I have a Bridgeport II CNC mill so machining is free.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Vitor » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:07 am

width of bearing possibly?
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby mopar318 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:20 pm

Vitor wrote:width of bearing possibly?


That should only affect how tight the axle is correct? Width of bearing would be the same as a first gen. How come axles are universal for 01+. I guess I will find out.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Vitor » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:42 am

ideally you want to match width of bearing to hub and consequently to axle stud.

Improper matchup and crown on end of axle wont fit or will be loose.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby UptownSport » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:47 am

Here's from Greg(ACRMan) on the MN boards:
Greg wrote:
UptownSport wrote:Greg,

I've read the stuff on PT/P body swaps and it kinda makes sense ...
Getting into the stronger axle thing further; parts books say 2d gen ACR has different axles.
You know if this'd be worth looking into for plus-up to 1st gen?

Thanks

Uptown

norman426 wrote:wow stronger axles on an ACR? 2g? i never thought of it. The only thing I know of is the hub flange where the rim bolts to is 2mm thicker. Have you looked into the pt/shadow setup? but stronger axles on an acr that would be a good question for greg.

tony


The 2001 Magnum cars (ACR & R/T) used the same part number CV axle asemblies as the 2001 PT Cruiser automatic. They were stronger than the "regular" 2nd gen Grocery Getter CV axle assemblies. To use these in a 1st gen car, you need to use 2000-01 Grocery Getter front hubs and bearings (or equivalent) because the outer CV stub shaft is a larger diameter than the 1st gen stub. The 2000-01 front hubs have the same flange thickness as the 1st gen ACR hubs, so you get that upgrade along with your thicker axles. The 2000-01 wheel bearing is the same width as the 1st gen bearing (and fits the 1st gen knuckle), but the inner race has a larger bore to fit the larger hub. That should have been well covered in your research on the PT/P-body axle swap. Bear in mind that if you get the driver's side P-body axle, you need the VrrrrOOOOOMMMMMMMMM P-body part to get the extra-strength piece.

If you plan to run your camber near zero, you should be able to just use both right and left 2001 PT ATX or 2001 Magnum axles. The P-body was recommended for the driver's side because it was found that the Magnum axle was a bit too long for use with -2.5 deg camber. You'll know that your CV axles are too wide if the inner joint goes "thump-thump-thump" on tight turns.

The parts situation gets a bit odd in the 2002 model year. The PT automatic does not use the same CV axle assemblies as the Magnum Neons, and to make things more confusing they made major changes early in the 2002 model year. The very early 2002 neons used the same front hubs and bearings as the 2001 neons, but just a couple of months into 2002 model year production (probably August or Sept of 2001) they widened the hub and bearing. The stub on the outer CV joint was lengthened an equal amount, so the part number of the CV axle assembly had to change. The parts catalog shows two different front hub and front wheel bearing part numbers because of this, and you need to measure the width of the bearing on the 2002 car in order to figure out which part number you need. This bearing & hub width change was done to commonize knuckle and hub machining processes between the PT VrrrrOOOOOMMMMMMMMM and the non-turbo PT and PL.

Do not use the "wider" bearing or hub (2002-05) in a 1st gen Grocery Getter knuckle. The bearing bore in the knuckle is not deep enough to properly accept the wider bearing, and the 1st gen CV stub is too short to fit the wider hub the way DCX engineering intended.


Even with Greg's explaination, managed to screw it up;
got a '02 hub by accident. 'yard had 'em both marked '01.
The hub width is deeper, and 'cause they used a wider bearing,
the seat is moved outboard.
If you cut the '02 hub, it still presses on too far and the stud-
backs hit the knuckle. :oops:

Dunno what the bearing on right is outa. All 76mm OD.
Image
Image
Image
Image
And this is CHEAP.
axles $25 ea.
Hub (usually w/ knuckle) ~$25-30
'01 Wheel bearing (BCA (US Made)PN 510057) $55
(Your's are prolly shot anyways)
JeffB#2 wrote:If you use Shadow knuckles you will end up with some positive camber. Slot the struts for a cheapo method to fix that. Otherwise they bolt right in. If you use the Shadow knuckles, you will be able to change brake configurations to go with different rotor sizes. The "smallest" size will allow you to simply bolt your Grocery Getter calipers back on with Grocery Getter rotors. To change configurations you change out the bracket that the caliper bolts to. The Neons don't have a separate bracket t mount the caliper, the caliper simply bolts to the knuckle casting itself. The "Unit IV" type bearings in many of the older knuckles also bolt in, no need to remove the knuckle from the car or find the spendy on-car press to get bearing out. Pop the axle out, 4 bolts go in from the back of the knuckle and bearing assembly comes right out. Nate Greer was probably one of the first here to do this and I copied him on my NYG drag car. They are heavier than Grocery Getter knuckles and instantly force you to use the bigger splined axles.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby UptownSport » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:49 am

Benny wrote:
2001 PT Cruiser automatic.


I had a parts guy look up the cv axle for the 2001 pt cruiser and he said there was one part number for auto or manual. He also said the year range was 2000-2002. Just curious we use star parts( think thats what it is called)
Ben

UptownSport wrote:The Drivers axle is the same back into the eighties, length may have slight variation.
I don't know about the passenger's side. I'd assume the manual axle would work.

Omni's had large spline four bolt hubs, they take a bit to retrofit if I recall correctly.

There are two thicknesses of the early 2d gen hub, the later one is thicker, such as the 1st gen ACR were in comparison to
the standard Grocery Getter. Be carefull, too late of model and you get the wide bearing hubs.

speedy5131981 wrote:pt axle only works with manual transmission for Grocery Getter.. in my 95 Grocery Getter automatic, i used 11 in minivan rotors (same as daytona and some shadow) 60mm calipers. bolted in except i had to use the minivan pinch bolt for the ball joint. used shadow left axle. ( mine is an auto car) passengers side i took one that came out of a minivan or something and had it shortened, and rewelded together. you can shorten the old tube style axles, ends are pressed in and welded. just like a driveshaft in a rear wheel drive car.



I **think** you can swap out wide bearings by using respective hub BOLT ON retainer plate.
IOW, retainer plate is simply wider, knuckles the same. So wide bearings on your '95
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby mopar318 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:34 am

Thanks for that post. I searched for an hour and could not find it. When I get my 02 knuckles I will compare the bearing width to my 98 ACR bearing width. If it is the smaller bearing I should be able to use the 01/02 pt axle. The problem is I am using the intermediate shaft so there is only one axle option for the passenger side.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Vitor » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:07 pm

Driver side axle fits into jack shaft on passenget side assuming you are using auto VrrrrOOOOOMMMMMMMMM pt jackshaft.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby mopar318 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:39 pm

Vitor wrote:Driver side axle fits into jack shaft on passenget side assuming you are using auto VrrrrOOOOOMMMMMMMMM pt jackshaft.


It does? Jack shaft has male end. Axle has female. Drivers side axle uses male end.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby Vitor » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:56 pm

hmm let me think about that....

Not sure now that you say that, i know i have photo of one somewhere.
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Offset Tension Rods - $99
DOHC Manifold Spacer - $94
1G Throttle Spacer - $43
Monster Air Dams ( plastic and aluminum ) - $69
Adjustable Rear Sway Bar End Links - $69

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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby mopar318 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:07 pm

Vitor wrote:hmm let me think about that....

Not sure now that you say that, i know i have photo of one somewhere.


There is a convienent picture of each axle above..lol.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby mopar318 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:38 pm

I received my 02 hubs and measured the bearings. It looks like I got the 33mm version. So I need to to get the wider bearings, and hubs from any 03+ car.

Jewel Encrusted Piece of Poo Axle does not seem to slide all the way and seat. Makes sense.
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby SRTMiniMe » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:21 pm

jimbo in MI wrote:
Vitor wrote:Some (if not all!) 00 and 01 axles are 23 splines.


Can someone confirm those spline counts?

...and others all show 26 spline for 2000 and up. Those, and other sites also show interchange for all models between 2000 and 2005 except Jewel Encrusted Piece of Poo.


I picked up some spare axles from an '01. They are definitely 26 spline. The '01 knuckles also have the following casting numbers; 093AE, 0279, 01

Vitor wrote:Driver side axle fits into jack shaft on passenger side assuming you are using auto VrrrrOOOOOMMMMMMMMM pt jackshaft.


Unfortunately no. Plus they are super expensive now that FIAT got their grips on US inventory...
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby UptownSport » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:06 pm

Vitor wrote:Some (if not all!) 00 and 01 axles are 23 splines.


That's a negatory, there, good buddy
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Re: Steering knuckle info sticky

Postby jimbo in MI » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:38 pm

UptownSport wrote:
Vitor wrote:Some (if not all!) 00 and 01 axles are 23 splines.


That's a negatory, there, good buddy


That is what I thought. I could not find any info that said 2nd gens used the smaller spline axles.
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Ball joint extenders

Postby TheGreenMachine » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:09 pm

If your Grocery Getter is any lower then stock and you have prothanes you will notice that your control arms are pointing upwards and that puts the bushing in a bind. Has anyone given this any thought? I'm not sure if there are any available for Grocery Getter anyway.


If you don't know what i'm talking about, Google it. There doesn't need to be 5 posts saying "wuts dat?".
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Re: Ball joint extenders

Postby TheGreenMachine » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:11 pm

lets add pictures for the simple minded folks.

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Re: Ball joint extenders

Postby gyrol » Sat Sep 03, 2011 2:16 pm

There might not be any..... that is unless you can find a ball joint with a longer stud that can be pressed into the LCA.

I have a moog catalog some where that listed the overall lengths ..... I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: I missed the extender part ..... ill pay more attention next time.
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Re: Ball joint extenders

Postby JeffB#2 » Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:02 pm

Better get some bigger diameter wheels too
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Re: Ball joint extenders

Postby guhfluh » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:21 pm

According to Jimbo, Shadow knuckles do this also.

I have thought about it because of the exact reason you state. I didn't want to be a guinea pig though and didn't feel comfortable with their looks of strength/reliability. They may be perfectly reliable and just fine though.

I'm sure you need to match the taper angle/length.
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Re: Ball joint extenders

Postby jimbo in MI » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:28 pm

Image

Image
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Re: Ball joint extenders

Postby jimbo in MI » Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:37 pm

Maybe this will make it easier to see. These lines are all parallel, and pretty close to the same place on the knuckle.

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