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 Post subject: Balljoint with longer stud
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:42 pm 
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Anybody try to find a balljoint with a long stud so that you can put a 1"-2" spacer between the controll-arm and the knuckle. The idea is to run alot less static camber. I saw a kit to do this for a lowered Subbie. It's for a rallycrosss project/maybe GRM 2007 car with stock springs. Thanks Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:57 pm 
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Picture may help clarify this.

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 Post subject: balljoint spacer
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:28 pm 
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http://www.6gunracing.com/products.asp gives a better explanation than mine but I think you picked right up on the theory. Would make a nice "Goodie" Thanks Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:45 pm 
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Someone is sure making a killing on that kit!

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 Post subject: Kit
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:51 pm 
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Looks like it comes with spacers for the tierods also. I was hoping to do it for less than 200$. Thanks Mike

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 Post subject: Kits
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:46 pm 
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=1055510 Looks like this might not be so simple. There is a source for balljoints with longer studs in there somewhere. Gotta think about this. Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:15 pm 
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You state the goal is to run a lot less static camber. Why? And if so, are you thinking that this kit will make you get a lot of camber as the suspension travels? That's not going to happen, at least, not anything like a proper SLA suspension like in most Hondas/Acuras does.

Usually this is used when you lower a car a LOT. Lowering the ball joint is done to raise the roll center of the suspension back up, closer to or above ground, so that you don't need monster stabilizer bars to provide adequate roll stiffness.


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 Post subject: steering
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:13 pm 
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...and the bumpsteer fix on the neon would involve shimming the rack UP instead of shimming the tie rod end DOWN as on the subie, because the neon's tie rod end mounts on top of the steering arm.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:08 pm 
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I can confirm that you will not a gain a significant amount of camber gain by doing this. You static camber will only change by about .1 degree.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:38 pm 
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What I'm trying to do is come up with is an improved suspension that will work with soft springs. It might need bigger sway bars but the car will be gutted with no cage so the stock bars will work better. I don't want to put on a big rear bar to try to balance it. With a FWD car with over -2 degrees of static camber in the front forward bit is limited. Basically throw out all the usual Band aides. Is the .1 change in camber a linear change, I kind of doubt it, it would depend on ride height. Why would the Subbies go to all this trouble for only .1 degrees of camber? The roll center being too low is a real problem even on a stock ride height Neon. I have suffered through the jacking effects many times. Are we lowering our cars, using stiff springs and putting all this camber in to make it somehow still turn and not jack with the too low roll center? Will raising the roll center and improving the camber curve and give you more grip with less static camber? Will it totally do away with the jacking effect? You guys have not given me one solid reason to throw in the towel on this idea just the opposite.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:46 pm 
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jacking ?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:35 pm 
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2Beeps wrote:
You guys have not given me one solid reason to throw in the towel on this idea just the opposite.


I guess most of us are wondering why you would do this... How will this benefit the suspension geometry?

In my head, I see a longer ball joint doing nothing but changing the angle of the control arm in relation to the strut and knuckle. Doing this would cause the strut/spring to sit in a more vertical fashion, thus raising the center of gravity. In that same step, the effective track width is reduced as well.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm 
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2Beeps wrote:
What I'm trying to do is come up with is an improved suspension that will work with soft springs. It might need bigger sway bars but the car will be gutted with no cage so the stock bars will work better. I don't want to put on a big rear bar to try to balance it. With a FWD car with over -2 degrees of static camber in the front forward bit is limited. Basically throw out all the usual Band aides. Is the .1 change in camber a linear change, I kind of doubt it, it would depend on ride height. Why would the Subbies go to all this trouble for only .1 degrees of camber? The roll center being too low is a real problem even on a stock ride height Neon. I have suffered through the jacking effects many times. Are we lowering our cars, using stiff springs and putting all this camber in to make it somehow still turn and not jack with the too low roll center? Will raising the roll center and improving the camber curve and give you more grip with less static camber? Will it totally do away with the jacking effect? You guys have not given me one solid reason to throw in the towel on this idea just the opposite.


The Neons don't have that low of a front roll center, it's around 80 mm at curb, around 35 mm above ground with 1 person in the car (for a 1st gen car). If you want to raise the roll center for a rallycross car, than the easiest way is to raise the car. That said, jacking is usually a problem with a high roll center, so I'm not sure where you are going with this....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:34 pm 
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Basicly I'm trying to put together a cheep Neon that handles better then say a stock ACR. All 3 ACRs that I owned suffered from a jacking effect if push hard. They even jacked in a Rallycross. Now what I'm calling jacking is a bad push where it feels like both front tires went to positive camber. The front end lifts and is unresponsive to turning the wheel in either direction. Just like an old SW Bug. Seemed to happen more when I had the car setup lose. Maybe it is throttle induced problem. I don't want Koni's, a big bar on the rear, coilovers with 400+ springs or camber plates, I already have a car like that and cannot afford to build a second one just for rallycrosses. The Band aides work but why not just fix the root of the problem. To me the problem seems to come from the rollcenter being too far below the center of gravity. Just curious what does having 1 person in the car have to do with the roll center unless say 200lbs changes the angle of the control arms that much. http://www.rqriley.com/images/fig-14.gif I first thought of the camber changes this might bring until the roll center was mentioned then it looks even better to me. Tell me about what the virtual reaction point is and what effects it has when the suspension is fully compressed in a turn pulling 1g? No towel yet. Mike

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:53 pm 
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Umm, no. The situation you describe is from swing axle cars like the old Beetle, Spitfire, etc. Being a strut suspension, the Neon doesn't have much camber change. When the body rolls, the outside will go positive and the inside negative.

If you are running SCCA Rallycross, this will put you into Mod. Not much chance of being competive.

Just run it stock. There are 3 Neons entered in the upcoming Rallycross National Championship. Stay tuned.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:14 pm 
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2Beeps wrote:
Basicly I'm trying to put together a cheep Neon that handles better then say a stock ACR. All 3 ACRs that I owned suffered from a jacking effect if push hard. They even jacked in a Rallycross. Now what I'm calling jacking is a bad push where it feels like both front tires went to positive camber. The front end lifts and is unresponsive to turning the wheel in either direction. Just like an old SW Bug. Seemed to happen more when I had the car setup lose. Maybe it is throttle induced problem. I don't want Koni's, a big bar on the rear, coilovers with 400+ springs or camber plates, I already have a car like that and cannot afford to build a second one just for rallycrosses. The Band aides work but why not just fix the root of the problem. To me the problem seems to come from the rollcenter being too far below the center of gravity. Just curious what does having 1 person in the car have to do with the roll center unless say 200lbs changes the angle of the control arms that much. http://www.rqriley.com/images/fig-14.gif I first thought of the camber changes this might bring until the roll center was mentioned then it looks even better to me. Tell me about what the virtual reaction point is and what effects it has when the suspension is fully compressed in a turn pulling 1g? No towel yet. Mike


If you don't understand what the virtual reaction point is that's referred to in this drawing, I really don't advise you to go messing with suspension geometry.

The "virtual reaction point" in the drawing is the instantaneous center of rotation of the suspension (basically, the point which the wheel rotates about). This is an instantaneous point, as the moment the suspension starts to move, this point also moves. If you draw a line from the wheel center to this point, you can learn a few things about the car. If the line is really long, the camber curve is going to be very linear, and have very little change. By the way, on strut suspensions, like the Neon, this line is REALLY long. Hence, you get very little track change and little camber change during travel. However, the roll center height of a strut suspension changes significantly with wheel travel. It can go up or down anywhere from 2 to 3 times the distance that the wheel goes up or down.

I'd suggest that you just follow what successful ralliers and rallycross drivers are doing for suspension set up.

The reason that the Subaru offsets the balljoint lower is to recover the roll center height after lowering the car. So say they slam the Subaru 2", the roll center is now 4-6" lower than it is on the production car. However, the CG of the car only changed by a little less than 2", so the moment between the CG and the roll center height got bigger. Therefore, to keep the car rolling the same amount, you would need a bigger stabilizer bar on the lower roll center car. Bigger stabilizer bars are not necessarily a good thing, as they get stiffer, they tend to not allow the tires to grip over bumps.

From the sounds of it, you probably want to stick to stock class, or only compete locally. Any divisional or higher events I'd expect the PF class to have some good cars, that at the very least have limited slips in them, which it doesn't sound like you want to buy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Neon Enthusiast

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Actually, PF doesn't allow adding a limited slip or messing with suspension geometry. That puts you in Mod, where anything goes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:18 am 
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Neon Enthusiast

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Hmmm, now I see that. Crap. Well, maybe running big heavy rally tires reduces the need for a LSD. Can you comment, since it sounds like you run a 1st gen in rallycross?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:34 pm 
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I haven't driven a car with LSD, but it sure looks like the way to go to me. Rallycross is still in it's infancy and driver makes more of a difference than car. So far a 2nd place Stock Neon (me) usually posts times fast enough to win PF. I'm sure that will change with time. I'm eyeing a Sentra SER Spec-V for when the Neon is no longer competitve.

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 Post subject: ????
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:02 pm 
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After thinking about a little while I remembered the first piece of advice I got from a very good Neon driver from back in the day when Neons dominated DS," Keep the front end down. It won't turn with the front end up". After letting him drive my car I remember getting out and smelling the brake pads burning after a 45 second autocross course. As far as running a LSD it would be way out of budget for a car that will sit all year except for maybe 5 rallycrosses. The balljoint trick is not the silverbullit for lousy driving on my part. Thanks Mike

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 Post subject: Re: Balljoint with longer stud
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:34 pm 
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I prefer keeping discussions, old and new in one place so Im posting here instead of rehashing it all over again another thread.

Since the car is lowered(2004 SRT-4, Koni + GC co kit), I want to raise the roll center by changing the lower ball joint mounting point relative to the LCA's frame mounts. So I just got today Whiteline KCA395 EVO ball joints and tie rods.http://www.whiteline.com.au/instruction/Z351_KCA395.pdf

The EVO ball joints need a couple mm taken off of thier diameter to fit the SRT LCA, which isn't a huge deal--10min on the lathe. These lower the ball joint a good 5/8" which should raise the roll center over 1". Since the new ball joint will screw with the bump steer, I'll also flip the stock tie rod from its top mounting point on the Knuckle to the bottom. If bump steer is still an issue, I'll test the Whiteline's taller tie rods and see if its an improvement. I may still need more bump steer adjustment, so I've been eyeballing the late model Mustang Bump steer kitshttp://www.americanmuscle.com/steeda-2005-bumpsteer-kit.html

I ordered a set of Whiteline KCA395. $166 shipped. Not bad considering you get new tie rods as well.

The EVO ball joints may need a little work to their diameter. 40mm vs 38mm is a bit but doable. I'll simply drill the knuckle out for the 20mm stud and then modify the ball joint stud for the pinch bolt.

Image


Here's the new 'taller' lower ball joints I have planned for the Srt-4.
Image

I also ordered these bushings to flip the tie rod so that bump steer doesn't go too crazy with my taller ball joints.

Bump steer kits ,Golf Mk1,2,3 Corrado`s Vw

For reference Srt-4 tie rod dimension per Moog ES3173RL

Length:4.5"
Thread:M14-1.5RI Female
Stud small taper:.486"
Stud Large taper: .593
Stud thread: M12-1.25

FWIW this stud dimensions are exactly the same as the EVO tie rod

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Last edited by duster360 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Balljoint with longer stud
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:50 pm 
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duster360 wrote:
I prefer keeping discussions, old and new in one place so Im posting here instead of rehashing it all over again another thread.

Since the car is lowered, I want to raise the roll center by changing the lower ball joint mounting point relative to the LCA's frame mounts. So I just got today Whiteline KCA395 EVO ball joints and tie rods.http://www.whiteline.com.au/instruction/Z351_KCA395.pdf

The EVO ball joints need a couple mm taken off of thier diameter to fit the SRT LCA, which isn't a huge deal--10min on the lathe. These raise the roll center a good 5/8". Since the new ball joint will screw with the bump steer, I'll also flip the stock tie rod from its top mounting point on the Knuckle to the bottom. If bump steer is still an issue, I'll test the Whiteline's taller tie rods and see if its an improvement. I may still need more bump steer adjustment, so I've been eyeballing the late model Mustang Bump steer kits: http://www.americanmuscle.com/steeda-2005-bumpsteer-kit.html

I ordered a set of Whiteline KCA395. $166 shipped. Not bad considering you get new tie rods as well.

The EVO ball joints may need a little work to their diameter. 40mm vs 38mm is a bit but doable. I'll simply drill the knuckle out for the 20mm stud and then modify the ball joint stud for the pinch bolt.

Image


Here's the new 'taller' lower ball joints I have planned for the Srt-4.
Image

I also ordered these bushings to flip the tie rod so that bump steer doesn't go too crazy with my taller ball joints.

Bump steer kits ,Golf Mk1,2,3 Corrado`s Vw

For reference Srt-4 tie rod dimension per Moog ES3173RL

Length:4.5"
Thread:M14-1.5RI Female
Stud small taper:.486"
Stud Large taper: .593
Stud thread: M12-1.25

FWIW this stud dimensions are exactly the same as the EVO tie rod


How much is bump steer affected from stock when you are already lowering the car?

If you are lowering by 5/8" or more shouldn't that directly offset the longer ball joint?

I know that Dodge changed the knuckles in '91 on the Daytona/Shadow/Spirit/Lebaron, etc by adding about 5/8" to the knuckle in the same manner and they never changed anything else.

It seems like rather than machining the ball joints that it would make much more sense to modify the control arms and knuckles. That way you can simply replace the ball joints as needed. If you are using cast control arms then the modifications will be easy. If you are using stamped steel ones then I would just cut and weld a new ball joint sleeve in it that has the correct dimensions. Knuckles and Control arms are cheap so you can always put it back to stock if needed.

-Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Balljoint with longer stud
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:04 pm 
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NOTE: This is a 2004 SRT-4. P body knuckles would be great but the different ABS sensor, strut mount and brakes makes them undesirable on an Srt-4. The tie rod position relative to the Srt is another unknown.

Here's the goal stated again:
Quote:
Since the car is lowered, I want to raise the roll center by changing the lower ball joint mounting point relative to the LCA's frame mounts.


If you don't lower the ball joint's position relative to its mount point on the frame, the roll center will NOT change. Google "roll center" for more info.

Just lowering the car doesn't effect Bump in any appreciable way.

Machining the LCA requires precisely fixturing it into a mill to assure the hole is concentric. I don't have access to a mill any way(most don't). Also there's not enough wall thickness on the LCA to accomodate the larger ID of the EVO ball joint while still providing a good press fit.

Modifing the ball joints themselves is pretty easy on the lathe and doesn't require and complicated fixturing. Ditto for drilling the hole a 2mm larger in the spindle.

I'm using PT cruiser knuckles for increased Ackermann and drastically reduced understeer http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=386643 When the time comes to sell the car, the stock knuckles and LCA will go back on the car.

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