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 Post subject: comp 400 vs crane 14
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:21 pm 
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ok so i finally just sat down and compared the specs b/w the comp and crane cams. i'm a little confused. i know absolutely squat about how cam specs affect performance, but i'm not so stupid as to be unable to compare the specs.

comp 400
intake 259' advance .384 lift
exhaust 266' advance .336 lift

crane 14
intake 262' advance .384 lift
exhaust 262' advance .345 lift

now everything i've ever heard says that the comp has a smaller base circle with a corresponding increase in lift and decrease in duration vs. the crane. from the specs it appears that the exhaust duration is actually greater with the comp and the lift is less on the exhaust side. doesn't the difference b/w the intake and exhaust indicate the amount of overlap?somebody want to try to clear this up!!! btw the nasty cam shows .400 lift both intake and exhaust!!!

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:30 pm 
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go with the 14 more lift

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 9:47 pm 
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The 400 have more lift but less duration than the 14.

The 14 have more power.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:32 am 
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L_Goofy wrote:
The 400 have more lift but less duration than the 14.

The 14 have more power.


according to the specs that i listed above the 400 has less lift on the exhaust side and more duration?

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 6:44 am 
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Most cam profiles though are really measured at .020 lift, or .050 lift to really compare one cam to another.



here's the key specification you forgot
Duration
@.050"
----- ----- Int./Exh
14----- --- 216/212°
400 ----- 205/206

--- RPM range:
14 ---- 2,500 - 7,500
400 --- 2,600 - 6,400

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:35 am 
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catapeed wrote:
Most cam profiles though are really measured at .020 lift, or .050 lift to really compare one cam to another.



here's the key specification you forgot
Duration
@.050"
----- ----- Int./Exh
14----- --- 216/212°
400 ----- 205/206

--- RPM range:
14 ---- 2,500 - 7,500
400 --- 2,600 - 6,400


so the duration is longer with the 14. what does .050" mean exactly? is it at .050" of lift the remaining duration of the cam rotation is measured? and is the lift still essentially the same for both cams or is it actually greater with the 400. lastly, is it the limited duration that causes the 400 to run out of gas at 6400? seems hard to believe that the 400 is only good to 6400 rpm. doesn't the stock r/t have a 6700 rev limiter?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:46 am 
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Duration is the total angle in CRANKSHAFT degrees that a valve is open. Duration determines where the power range will be for a cam. Increase the duration and the power range will move up in RPM and you will lose low end power. DECREASE the duration and the power range will move down in RPM and you will lose high end power. What you gain on one end, you will lose on the other. To be useful, duration specifications must reference a lifter or valve lift. Advertised and .050" duration are the most popular durations used by camshaft manufacturers.

.050" DURATION - .050" duration is measured in CRANKSHAFT degrees from the point where the lifter rises .050" from the base circle on the opening side of the cam lobe to the point on the closing side of the lobe where the lifter drops to .050" from the base circle. The .050" duration is todays most common standard for measuring duration.


.050" CAM TIMING - .050" timing is a reference point indicating where the intake and exhaust valves open and close. This is measured in CRANKSHAFT degrees at the point where the lifter rises .050" from the base circle on the opening side of the cam lobe, (valve opening reference), and the point on the closing side of the cam lobe where the lifter drops to .050" from the base circle, (valve closing reference). Note that these reference points are the same points that the .050" duration figures come from, only these are in reference to position of the piston in the cylinder near TDC or BDC. The specifications are given in the following form:
INTAKE OPEN -5 BTC = before top dead center
INTAKE CLOSE 29 ABC = after bottom dead center
EXHAUST OPEN 44 BBC = before bottom dead center
EXHAUST CLOSE -10 ATC = after top dead center
NOTE: When a (-) minus symbol is used, then use the opposite heading. (BTC -5 = 5 ATC)

ADVERTISED DURATION - The point of measurement for advertised duration can occur at any lift above the base circle. The lower the point of measurement for lift, the higher the duration angle. This specification is provided for people who think more is better. Advertised duration is a duration stated by a cam manufacturer as a reference to their camshaft only. Advertised duration has no lift specification point agreed to among cam manufacturers. The same manufacturer may use different lift points on different camshaft profiles to list advertised duration. There is no rhyme or reason to advertised duration among cam manufacturers.

And as for the 400 running out at 6,400rpm thats the advertised number from comp. If you look at the explaination of duration you will see that it must have less duration then the 14 thats why it runs out at 6,400.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:00 pm 
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catapeed wrote:
Increase the duration and the power range will move up in RPM and you will lose low end power. DECREASE the duration and the power range will move down in RPM and you will lose high end power.


incorrect. it's possible to increase the duration and gain both low and top end power. it's all in the cam specs. one factor that everybody is leaving out, is that the crane 14 has the added requirement of increased compression that the comp cam doesn't. this leads me to believe that the comp cam has less overlap, which is explained by it's shorter duration and it could also be timed to give low end power. but without seeing a cam card for the comp 400 cam, this is mostly just educated guessing.

you're thinking of on a SOHC how advancing the cam moves the powerband toward the low end, at the sacrifice of top end. and retarding the cam has the inverse effect. but this is only the case when the duration remains constant.

my opinion is that if you've got stock internals and a stock or MOPAR performance PCM and don't plan on upgrading further than that, go with the comp cam. if you've got an AF/x race PCM and plan on upgrading the pistons later, then go with the crane cam.

lastly, crane rates the 10/12/14/4/5 SOHC cams at 0.006" of lift. (also known as 'seat-to-seat') so you'll need to make sure that the duration specs for the comp cam are at the same specs to make an accurate comparison.

~Mookie

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:09 pm 
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Crane rates there cam at .050" http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=4&prt=2026&action=partSpec&partNumber=158-0014 It was also rated that way on my spec sheet that came with the cam.
And I do not believe I am wrong about duration and how it effects the power range of a motor.more duration can be helpful in high RPM engines but not low RPM engines. The extra degrees of open valve time in high RPM engines gives the air flow a little more time to get into (or out of) the cylinder in spite of the piston's stroke. However, at lower RPMs, more duration can cause less power because the valves will be open at the wrong time in relation to the piston's stroke up or down in the cylinder.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 3:01 pm 
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The Mookinator wrote:
catapeed wrote:
Increase the duration and the power range will move up in RPM and you will lose low end power. DECREASE the duration and the power range will move down in RPM and you will lose high end power.


incorrect. it's possible to increase the duration and gain both low and top end power. it's all in the cam specs. one factor that everybody is leaving out, is that the crane 14 has the added requirement of increased compression that the comp cam doesn't. this leads me to believe that the comp cam has less overlap, which is explained by it's shorter duration and it could also be timed to give low end power. but without seeing a cam card for the comp 400 cam, this is mostly just educated guessing.
~Mookie


I agree with Mookie. Perhaps you should have said "all else being equal, more or less duration will have X effect". Real world, big cams along with other mods helped my 2.0L make way more torque than it did with stock cams and stock bottom end.

Kari

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 4:22 pm 
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I will have my comp400 cam card scanned and posted this evening

edit: guess it won't get scanned tonight, scanner at work is messed up at the moment

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Last edited by sublevel on Wed May 17, 2006 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:59 pm 
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thanks for the education everyone. to clarify... i already have a nib comp400 and have been debating using it or swapping to a crane 14 or nasty cam. my motor build is either going to be a 2.2 stroker or 2.0 long rod 10.5:1 and afx/r pcm. i'll have to review this post again when i have more time to fully grasp everything. but in layman's terms it sounds like the 400 is the ideal cam for the stock motor guy with head work and bolt-ons. the crane's sound more appropriate for full motor builds. anyone want to trade a 14 or nasty for a 400?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:23 pm 
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ForeverNorth wrote:
The Mookinator wrote:
catapeed wrote:
Increase the duration and the power range will move up in RPM and you will lose low end power. DECREASE the duration and the power range will move down in RPM and you will lose high end power.


incorrect. it's possible to increase the duration and gain both low and top end power. it's all in the cam specs. one factor that everybody is leaving out, is that the crane 14 has the added requirement of increased compression that the comp cam doesn't. this leads me to believe that the comp cam has less overlap, which is explained by it's shorter duration and it could also be timed to give low end power. but without seeing a cam card for the comp 400 cam, this is mostly just educated guessing.
~Mookie


I agree with Mookie. Perhaps you should have said "all else being equal, more or less duration will have X effect". Real world, big cams along with other mods helped my 2.0L make way more torque than it did with stock cams and stock bottom end.

Kari


Well imagine that big cams and other mods helped your 2.0l make more torque than it did with stock cams and bottom end,, well um ah DUH ofcourse it did.

After a statement like that YOU should really say nothing. as it show you know nothing.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 7:42 pm 
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catapeed wrote:
After a statement like that YOU should really say nothing. as it show you know nothing.


and no offense, but i could talk for HOURS about all the variables that go into cam design and how they and the other parts of the engine effect the power curve. just saying that larger duration means more top end with less bottom end only shows your inexperience in the subject. because it's a gross oversimplification of only one of the thousands of aspects that increasing the duration has.

~Mookie

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:53 pm 
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scanner is working again...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 4:17 am 
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The Mookinator wrote:
catapeed wrote:
After a statement like that YOU should really say nothing. as it show you know nothing.


and no offense, but i could talk for HOURS about all the variables that go into cam design and how they and the other parts of the engine effect the power curve. just saying that larger duration means more top end with less bottom end only shows your inexperience in the subject. because it's a gross oversimplification of only one of the thousands of aspects that increasing the duration has.

~Mookie


Simple explanation YES, and a correct explanation. Do you agree with this simple statement?

Duration is the period of time, measured in degrees of crankshaft rotation, that a valve is open. Duration (at .050" lifter rise) is the deciding factor to what the engine's basic RPM range will be. Lower duration cams produce the power in the lower RPM range. Larger duration cams operate at higher RPM, but you will lose bottom end power to gain top end power as the duration is increased. (For each ten degree change in the duration at .050", the power band moves up or down in RPM range by approximately 500 RPM.)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:37 am 
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catapeed wrote:
After a statement like that YOU should really say nothing. as it show you know nothing.


Okay, result of a misunderstanding... I'm cool about it. Take into consideration the original poster's plans. He IS planning on increased compression etc.... the Comp 400 would only hold him back.

For what it's worth, I thought your writing on what duration, cam timing, advertised duration etc... was actually quite good. Well thought out and detailed. You'd obviously gone to the effort of explaining some things in order to try and help a guy out.

For myself, I realize my own post was stupidly vague and obviously came across as a something that ticked you off. All I meant was that big cams aren't necessarily going to result in a loss of low-end power - not "damn man you're dead wrong!"

My statement about simply getting more torque with mods wasn't well-put at all. What I should have written was that it's still possible to enjoy an increase in low end AND top end power if the combination of parts and tuning is done right. That's the part of Mookie's post I was agreeing with the most. For those who are curious, I do have a dynograph of my own motor's output to prove that you can still get nice low and mid-range power increases with Crane 18's, which are still bigger lift-wise than the SOHC #14, and less than 5 degrees difference duration-wise. I think for Sgt.Brad this is relevant, since his plans are much more to the "fully built" end of things. He may yet be better off with an Crane 005/custom grind with even more duration and lift, especially if he goes with a stroker build.

There, better?

Kari

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:02 am 
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ForeverNorth wrote:
catapeed wrote:
After a statement like that YOU should really say nothing. as it show you know nothing.


Okay, result of a misunderstanding... I'm cool about it. Take into consideration the original poster's plans. He IS planning on increased compression etc.... the Comp 400 would only hold him back.

For what it's worth, I thought your writing on what duration, cam timing, advertised duration etc... was actually quite good. Well thought out and detailed. You'd obviously gone to the effort of explaining some things in order to try and help a guy out.

For myself, I realize my own post was stupidly vague and obviously came across as a something that ticked you off. All I meant was that big cams aren't necessarily going to result in a loss of low-end power - not "damn man you're dead wrong!"

My statement about simply getting more torque with mods wasn't well-put at all. What I should have written was that it's still possible to enjoy an increase in low end AND top end power if the combination of parts and tuning is done right. That's the part of Mookie's post I was agreeing with the most. For those who are curious, I do have a dynograph of my own motor's output to prove that you can still get nice low and mid-range power increases with Crane 18's, which are still bigger lift-wise than the SOHC #14, and less than 5 degrees difference duration-wise. I think for Sgt.Brad this is relevant, since his plans are much more to the "fully built" end of things. He may yet be better off with an Crane 005/custom grind with even more duration and lift, especially if he goes with a stroker build.

There, better?

Kari


Hey NO problem, but it is a fact that more duration moves the band up as I stated earlier. Anytime you install performance cams your gonna gain low and high acrossed the board over stock BUT a cam with equal lift but more duration will have more power higher up.
I did not think I had to explain that part of it as I figured SGTBrad knows enough about engine to have understood this.
My engine is fully built also so I know exactly where he wants to go.

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