hydraulic vs mechanical tensioner.

hydraulic vs mechanical tensioner.

Postby Bradford_R/T » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:11 pm

the other post about the tensioner made me think about this. in your opinion which is the better setup for running larger cams? i know at parts dinosaur you can get the"better spring setup" but thats not enough to convince me. thanks.

There is a bunch of info spread out in the next 3 pages. There is also a condensed version of these 3 pages in the archives at the following link.
http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=276308
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Postby blacker96NeoN » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:26 pm

i dont knwo abotu bigger cams, but i was recommended to use an Jewel Encrusted Piece of Poo one for my 2.4...
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Postby Bradford_R/T » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:51 pm

yeah but the Jewel Encrusted Piece of Poo does not fit the 2.0 as per jeff b. i heard the new stlye is the same as the Jewel Encrusted Piece of Poo 4 only fit for the 2.0. would be a nice upgrade to the hydraulic if that is true, and they hold better.
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Postby aneonrider » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:55 pm

After the hydraluic tensioner failed on my stock engine, I will never use another one.

2.4 tensioner won't fit a 2.0 engine, yes. But note that he has a 2.4!

New style mechanical tensioners have been discussed over and over and over and over again... use the button up top there and discover.
Last edited by aneonrider on Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bradford_R/T » Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:35 pm

aneonrider wrote:After the hydraluic tensioner failed on my stock engine, I will never use another one.

so i take it you use the other style?? would be nice to give me some insight to why you just did not replace with another hydraulic?
2.4 tensioner won't fit a 2.0 engine, yes. But note that he has a 2.4!

i noted he had a 2.4, but note i have a 2.0. :wink:

New style mechanical tensioners have been discussed over and over and over and over again... use the button up top there and discover.



dont you think i've researched this before asking? but most of the posts on this are more about making a 04+ tesioner fit on a pre 04-2.0, or the srt-4 one work on a reg 2.4. i was looking more towards the tensioners that actually fit the 2.0 with no modification. not a whole lot of info on here on if they are superior to our hydraulic or not with larger cams. all i have really found was the info on parts dinosaur, which i said does not convince me, and a few peoples opnions on them, which some said the hydraulic was better. i would like some first hand experiance opinions, or opinions backed by fact now that they have been around for a while.
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Postby alpinegreenneon » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:35 pm

I agree with KESWICK_R/T. I would like to see a pic of a failed hydraulic tensioner. I have two Neons that will soon need new timing belts. The Grocery Getter I have changed the timing belt on has a brand new hydraulic tensioner and new pulleys as well, even though I saw nothing obviously wrong with the originals. It seems that some just don't want to buy a dealer part thinking they will be ripped off. I have found a dealer that gives me a 20% discount on Mopar parts. So that isn't a part of my decision about where to get my parts. Those parts were engineered to last like the originals. From what I have read, the 04 type tensioner isn't easy to put on because of the larger pulley. That was why I decided to stay with the original type. I would still be open to change if I see enough hard data to switch to a mechanical tensioner on the next timing belts I will need to replace.
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Postby aneonrider » Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:37 pm

I'll post a picture of one when I get back to the farm...

04 tensioner was a piece of cake to install.
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Postby alpinegreenneon » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:44 am

I found this .pdf file looking for more info. Interesting thing here is that they recommend completely removing the bushing for pre 2000 Neons.

http://www.tendeco.com/techtips.nsf/361 ... nsioner%22

Litens is the manufacturer for the Mopar 04 tensioner.
I also found this about counterfeit tensioners:

http://www.tendeco.com/techtips.nsf/361 ... ioners.pdf
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Postby plymouth_neon_1998 » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:45 pm

Still trying to figure out why the mechanical tensioner is technologically superior. It would seem to also be cheaper than the more complicated hydraulic tensioner. Why would Chrysler use the hydraulic tensioner if a mechanical one would do?

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Postby Bradford_R/T » Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:29 pm

yeah, i want some facts on why i should swap. mainly if it will be better with larger cams, if not i guess i'll have to buy a new hyd setup when i install cams.
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Postby nobadges » Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:11 pm

I have never seen a hydraulic tensioner fail.

I've seen the mounting bolts fail.
I've seen the flanges fail.
I've seen the pulley fail.
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Postby UptownSport » Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:08 pm

plymouth_neon_1998 wrote:Still trying to figure out why the mechanical tensioner is technologically superior. It would seem to also be cheaper than the more complicated hydraulic tensioner. Why would Chrysler use the hydraulic tensioner if a mechanical one would do?

Jim

Astute questions.

No manufacturer uses anything but hydraulic dampeners
if they have a choice-
Shocks, struts, hop-dampener, etc.

Would seem the hydraulic tensioner is the
premium choice here.
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Postby plymouth_neon_1998 » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:10 am

I have to wonder if dampening timing belt tension oscillation is a desired function of a hydraulic tensioner. Perhaps this allows lower timing belt tension load than is required with an equivalently functional mechanical tensioner.

Somebody go get a current timing belt system mechanical engineer! We have a question.
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Postby alpinegreenneon » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:30 am

plymouth_neon_1998 wrote:I have to wonder if dampening timing belt tension oscillation is a desired function of a hydraulic tensioner. Perhaps this allows lower timing belt tension load than is required with an equivalently functional mechanical tensioner.

Somebody go get a current timing belt system mechanical engineer! We have a question.


Perhaps we can contact Litens or Tendeco.
Features button:
http://www.tendeco.com/website/timing/timing_feat.html
Looks like their tensioners have some kind of patented dampening.

Update: I sent an email to Litens and got this reply:

I have forwarded your note to a Litens application engineer for response. Mr. Al Steadman is on vacation this week, but will contact next week when he returns.
Last edited by alpinegreenneon on Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby UptownSport » Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:48 am

alpinegreenneon wrote:
plymouth_neon_1998 wrote:I have to wonder if dampening timing belt tension oscillation is a desired function of a hydraulic tensioner. Perhaps this allows lower timing belt tension load than is required with an equivalently functional mechanical tensioner.

Somebody go get a current timing belt system mechanical engineer! We have a question.


Perhaps we can contact Litens or Tendeco.
Features button:
http://www.tendeco.com/website/timing/timing_feat.html
Looks like their tensioners have some kind of patented dampening.

Sure, you can use friction as a damper,
Image
But hydraulics seem to be the current choice;
Image

Obviously, the spring idea's been around forever.
2.2/2.5's 1.7 V-dubbs used static adjustment for
idlers.
Assume engineers/design team must've;
a. wanted dynamic adjustment
b. Overcame the accountants/budget restrictions
when specifying the $$$ hydraulic adjuster, as Jim
pointed out.

Now, they both seem to work.
The 2.2/2.5/V-dubb did too, tho.
Perhaps they had fears in testing that just didn't
materialize in use, or Mitsu had used 'em and
that was their contribution/requirement.

So you gotta wonder.
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Postby plymouth_neon_1998 » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:06 pm

What's the timing belt change interval on the 2.4's with the mechanical tensioner?
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Postby alpinegreenneon » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:30 pm

This is the reply to some questions that I sent to Allen Steadman, an engineer at Litens:
(Click the links to see the .pdf files)

Here are the answers to your questions regarding the 2.0L timing belt system. You should mention if it is a SOHC or DOHC engine.

Background: Chrysler really did have trouble with the 2.0L as well as the 2.4L timing drive systems in many ways. They had many suppliers (NTN Federal Mogul, Tsubaki, as well as Litens). Some of the suppliers refused to make parts after a couple of years (for what reason I am not sure) therefore Chrysler was forced into switching from mechanical to hydraulic and things became very confusing. So seeing as the old mechanincal (non Litens see jpg below) tensioner was not available for production or service, switching to the Hydraulic system required a rear cover replacment as well as all of the timing drive parts (see pdf below). This is quite costly for the vehicle owner, however, what was Chrysler to do.
Mopar Parts link

Image



Is the Litens mechanical tensioner as good as or better than the original hydraulic tensioner? Can you be specific about why? (specific data, or graphs showing comparisons)
Read this and it will soon become very clear that the Litens Mechanical is the superior timing belt tensioner.
Hydraulic vs Friction link


Can you address the installation problems people are having because of the larger size pulley which makes it harder to put the timing belt on?
I have not heard of any issues regarding trouble installing the belt. The only items that I can think of are:
Correct length belt?
Maybe the idler has been replaced with a different size?
Are they following the correct installation procedure?
Install Procedure Chrysler 2.0L link


What suppliers besides Chrysler can give us a good price on the genuine Litens tensioner? There are suppliers on eBay and elsewhere selling a kit with a tensioner that looks like the Litens tensioner. (counterfeits?)
We have not found any counterfeits with regards to this tensioner, however, there is always a first.
If you would like to buy just the tensioner(no bracket), this can be purchased through any Goodyear distributor. Goodyear also carries the full line of Litens timing belt tensioners, accessory drive tensioners, as well as idlers.
If you want to buy a kit (belt and or idlers included) then I would recommend PCI (the ebay link below) or Parts Dinosaur (see link below) these are both genuine Litens products.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/95-04-Ch ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Timing-B ... 0024330092
http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product1319.html 2.0L SOHC 95-2004
http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product1310.html 2.0L DOHC


Additional information:

The small sleeve in the upper left corner of the tensioner bracket has recently been removed on this Litens tensioner, to help the tensioner fit other applications. This small sleeve would normally fit into the front engine bracket. It was only designed to be there to aid the engine plant with engine assembly.
Chrysler 2.0L tech tip link


Timing belts - Not all timing belts are created equal. I recommend using either a Gates, Conti, or Goodyear belt.
I do not recommend using a Dayco belt.


Best Regards and hope this helps,

Al Steadman
Last edited by alpinegreenneon on Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nobadges » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:11 pm

WOW 8O
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Postby UptownSport » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:40 pm

Holy Balls!
That's gotta be added to the archives
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Postby aneonrider » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:42 pm

Stickied for now until I get a chance to massage this for the archives.

Thanks for showing the initiative to contact Litens!
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Postby DJScorpio67 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:31 pm

I installed this Liten's tensioner on my 95 DOHC Sport Coupe. It was the current version with no sleeve/bushing. And After probably 600mi. on the supplied belt it's lost tension/gained some slack between the cam gears. It disappears with cranking the engine but it could be "moving" to a different spot. This weekend I'm installing a bushing for piece of mind. I'll let you all know what I find.
PS I'm running Crane 18's and Rhoads Lifters.
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Postby plymouth_neon_1998 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:53 pm

Very nice set of tech documents there.
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Postby Bradford_R/T » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:11 pm

exactly what i was looking for. woohoo my first sticky. thanks alot for getting in touch with litens. and for scorpio, how would a bushing help? i dont get that at all, i thought the bushing had to be removed so it would fit.
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Postby sublevel » Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:43 pm

previous post showed that bushing had to be flush with the body of the mount...

I will see if I can find the post

edit:

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=220424
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Postby DJScorpio67 » Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:37 pm

I figured that having the bushing would add one more snug bolt (4 total) to hold the tensioner mount in place. As I stated above, I'm only adding it for piece of mind with the bigger than stock cams.
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Postby Vitor » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:32 am

Wonder if that parts dinosaur place is selling litens made tensioner - says made in canada which is not on list of counterfitters according to litens.

I don't trust cheap timing belts - NAPA sells gates brand belts.

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Postby DJScorpio67 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:21 am

According to Litens Reply, Parts Dinosaur is one of their suppliers. Quoted From the letter from Litens:
If you want to buy a kit (belt and or idlers included) then I would recommend PCI (the ebay link below) or Parts Dinosaur (see link below) these are both genuine Litens products.
Last edited by DJScorpio67 on Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby alpinegreenneon » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:22 am

Vitor wrote:Wonder if that parts dinosaur place is selling litens made tensioner - says made in canada which is not on list of counterfitters according to litens.
V


Already answered.

alpinegreenneon wrote:This is the reply to some questions that I sent to Allen Steadman, an engineer at Litens:

If you want to buy a kit (belt and or idlers included) then I would recommend PCI (the ebay link below) or Parts Dinosaur (see link below) these are both genuine Litens products.

Al Steadman
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Postby DJScorpio67 » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:25 am

Sorry Case.
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Plymouth- The name is gone, but it's legend lives on!!!
http://richweb.allpar.net/Neontao.htm
All must read of the TAO ^^^
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ACR MAN wrote: It smells alcohol-y. The car gets the DUI, not the driver!
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Postby alpinegreenneon » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:52 am

No problem Denny, I guess we both sent our replies about the same time.

There is another thread on the Engine Swap Forum that is also about this Tensioner topic:

http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?p=2055799

Also got a reply from Mr Steadman about this.
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Postby NYG95GA » Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:50 pm

Since I'm right in the middle of a rebuild due to a snapped Flennor belt, I am very interested in the tensioner differences, so I went thru the links and just noticed that partsdinosaur sells as their belt brand.. you guessed it: Flennor!
No way in hades am I using another of that brand belt with a Crane valvetrain on a 2.0 twincam. This one lasted only a bit over 20,000 miles before snapping clean in half.. no evidence of tensioner failure *that I can tell*.
I've yet to hear anyone speak of how to determine if a hydraulic unit has gone bad, other than the obvious leaking of fluid, so even if a 'dry' tensioner was at fault, how would I know?
The mechanical tensioner does look promising, though; they make good points concerning the range of tension correction during resonance, resistance to flutter etc.
I'm going back with a proper Gates belt and the OEM hydraulic tensioner.. I guess I'll know more in another ~20,000 miles.
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Postby sublevel » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:32 am

if you can push the pluger down pretty easy its shot...

mine we had to crank down that puppy in a vise...
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Still thinking of owning another Grocery Getter again some day... some day... just glad "ws6wannab" is taking care of my old Grocery Getter, thank you!!!
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Postby alpinegreenneon » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:03 am

NYG95GA wrote:Since I'm right in the middle of a rebuild due to a snapped Flennor belt, I am very interested in the tensioner differences, so I went thru the links and just noticed that partsdinosaur sells as their belt brand.. you guessed it: Flennor!
No way in hades am I using another of that brand belt with a Crane valvetrain on a 2.0 twincam. This one lasted only a bit over 20,000 miles before snapping clean in half.. no evidence of tensioner failure *that I can tell*.
I've yet to hear anyone speak of how to determine if a hydraulic unit has gone bad, other than the obvious leaking of fluid, so even if a 'dry' tensioner was at fault, how would I know?
The mechanical tensioner does look promising, though; they make good points concerning the range of tension correction during resonance, resistance to flutter etc.
I'm going back with a proper Gates belt and the OEM hydraulic tensioner.. I guess I'll know more in another ~20,000 miles.


I think your logic is sound. The original setup is definitely proven since almost every stock Grocery Getter makes it to around 100k + miles. It's hard to believe Parts Dinosaur put a POS belt in their kit.
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Postby DJScorpio67 » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:00 pm

alpinegreenneon wrote:
NYG95GA wrote:Since I'm right in the middle of a rebuild due to a snapped Flennor belt, I am very interested in the tensioner differences, so I went thru the links and just noticed that partsdinosaur sells as their belt brand.. you guessed it: Flennor!
No way in hades am I using another of that brand belt with a Crane valvetrain on a 2.0 twincam. This one lasted only a bit over 20,000 miles before snapping clean in half.. no evidence of tensioner failure *that I can tell*.
I've yet to hear anyone speak of how to determine if a hydraulic unit has gone bad, other than the obvious leaking of fluid, so even if a 'dry' tensioner was at fault, how would I know?
The mechanical tensioner does look promising, though; they make good points concerning the range of tension correction during resonance, resistance to flutter etc.
I'm going back with a proper Gates belt and the OEM hydraulic tensioner.. I guess I'll know more in another ~20,000 miles.


I think your logic is sound. The original setup is definitely proven since almost every stock Grocery Getter makes it to around 100k + miles. It's hard to believe Parts Dinosaur put a POS belt in their kit.

I'm not sure that mine is a Flennor. I'll know tomorrow when I get it off. Mine did rub on the timing cover engine side so half the belt is worn thin though. And the belt looks to be thicker than the Goodyear Gatorback I bought to replace it.
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Postby neosmatrix » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:03 pm

This is an email from Parts Dinosaur about the timing belt kit. I havent asked the exact brand, but will.
I can only guess that you might be askin about the timing belt kit from PCI with the mechanical tensioner assembly. The belt is made for PCI by a major rubber company in Asia to the current specs from OE. If you were looking at the timing belt and bearings package on the same page, that belt is made by Flennor for S A Gear and usually comes from Germany or Italy (sometime England). I sell both of these package on eBay so I'm not certain if you saw something there but tell me more about what you need and I can certainly give you more information. The gaskets you might want to look at are on a different page and it sounds like you might have missed some of the links on these pages

http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product259.html
http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product1310.html

S
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Postby UptownSport » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:14 pm

alpinegreenneon wrote:
NYG95GA wrote:Since I'm right in the middle of a rebuild due to a snapped Flennor belt, I am very interested in the tensioner differences, so I went thru the links and just noticed that partsdinosaur sells as their belt brand.. you guessed it: Flennor!
No way in hades am I using another of that brand belt with a Crane valvetrain on a 2.0 twincam. This one lasted only a bit over 20,000 miles before snapping clean in half.. no evidence of tensioner failure *that I can tell*.
I've yet to hear anyone speak of how to determine if a hydraulic unit has gone bad, other than the obvious leaking of fluid, so even if a 'dry' tensioner was at fault, how would I know?
The mechanical tensioner does look promising, though; they make good points concerning the range of tension correction during resonance, resistance to flutter etc.
I'm going back with a proper Gates belt and the OEM hydraulic tensioner.. I guess I'll know more in another ~20,000 miles.


I think your logic is sound. The original setup is definitely proven since almost every stock Grocery Getter makes it to around 100k + miles. It's hard to believe Parts Dinosaur put a POS belt in their kit.

Certainly logic in their description of the effects of flutter;
is the increased tension undesirable??? Does it exceed the design
of the belt???
The description of the H tensioner following the furthest arcs and
not retreating easily makes sense.
The spring tensioner yielding to the belts wishes makes equal sense.

Again, what works and for what price. Not replacing; 200k here ...

Also be good to hear an indepth of belts; brands, width, teeth.
Mopar was good enough to market a short tooth for milled 2.2's.
That aughta be good for another few pages 'til something else
is thought of
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Postby LilNeon » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:03 am

I had a bit over 150k when my timing belt snapped for first time (wow i really pushed that thing to the limit) the stock hydralic tensioner still looked in good shape and given the effort it was to recompress the thing and get the locking pin in place i decoded it was still going strong. now i'm at a bit over 172k miles and not a problem yet.
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Postby javert » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:12 pm

djscorpio67 Quote: I figured that having the bushing would add one more snug bolt (4 total) to hold the tensioner mount in place. As I stated above, I'm only adding it for piece of mind with the bigger than stock cams.


Having a tensioner with the bushing removed will not affect the number of bolts holding the tensioner in place. There should always be 4 bolts holding the tensioner in place with or without the bushing. The only purpose of that bushing/sleeve was to help the chrysler assembly plant install the front engine bracket/accessory drive tensioner. I sure hope you are not trying to install the tensioner with only 3 bolts !
Last edited by javert on Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby javert » Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:32 pm

NYG95GA wrote:Since I'm right in the middle of a rebuild due to a snapped Flennor belt, I am very interested in the tensioner differences, so I went thru the links and just noticed that partsdinosaur sells as their belt brand.. you guessed it: Flennor!
No way in hades am I using another of that brand belt with a Crane valvetrain on a 2.0 twincam. This one lasted only a bit over 20,000 miles before snapping clean in half.. no evidence of tensioner failure *that I can tell*.
I've yet to hear anyone speak of how to determine if a hydraulic unit has gone bad, other than the obvious leaking of fluid, so even if a 'dry' tensioner was at fault, how would I know?
The mechanical tensioner does look promising, though; they make good points concerning the range of tension correction during resonance, resistance to flutter etc.
I'm going back with a proper Gates belt and the OEM hydraulic tensioner.. I guess I'll know more in another ~20,000 miles.



Go with the Gates belt or a belt made by Conti and the Litens Tensioner. Don't go OEM Hydraulic. Trust me I know.
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Postby DJScorpio67 » Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:49 pm

javert wrote:djscorpio67 Quote: I figured that having the bushing would add one more snug bolt (4 total) to hold the tensioner mount in place. As I stated above, I'm only adding it for piece of mind with the bigger than stock cams.


Having a tensioner with the bushing removed will not affect the number of bolts holding the tensioner in place. There should always be 4 bolts holding the tensioner in place with or without the bushing. The only purpose of that bushing/sleeve was to help the chrysler assembly plant install the front engine bracket/accessory drive tensioner. I sure hope you are not trying to install the tensioner with only 3 bolts !


What I meant with that 3 snug bolt comment was that without the bushing in place there is slop in that third hole between it and the bolt. With the bushing in place the clearances are much tighter. You follow me? And when I added the bushing the tensioner mount moved nearly 1/4 of an inch!!!! 8O
95 My Jalopy SC DOHC MTX
Plymouth- The name is gone, but it's legend lives on!!!
http://richweb.allpar.net/Neontao.htm
All must read of the TAO ^^^
http://www.autoblog.com/2005/10/07/look ... odge-neon/
PA ACR wrote:My Grocery Getter was born and my heart is in Belvidere... :good:
ACR MAN wrote: It smells alcohol-y. The car gets the DUI, not the driver!
NeonNytes wrote:You should start some kind of Grocery Getter protection agency now :D Call it N.E.R.D. Grocery Getter Enthusiast Refurbishing Division.
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