Ford Diff spring in a neon trans **Installed & Working

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Ford Diff spring in a neon trans **Installed & Working

Post by Ghost Neon » Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:21 am

Went over to TD.com and came upon this bit of info. Figured it would be worth a look.

http://www.turbododge.com/forums/f4/f22 ... -copy.html

Add the diff tabs, and it should be all set.
Last edited by Ghost Neon on Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Spoo76 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:19 pm

and why would anyone want this over a phantomgrip or clone?
i didnt see a cost to compare
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Post by TurboGLH » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:01 pm

Spoo76 wrote:and why would anyone want this over a phantomgrip or clone?
i didnt see a cost to compare
Most likely because it's as effective as a PG and it cost's less than $20. All the block style posi's that don't utilize a clutch are useless, they stop working in a very short period of time. As a matter of fact, we don't recommend to our customers that they use a PG in any transmission besides a 525, and only then because there is no other readily available option.

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Post by LenAyala » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:10 pm

Nice find!
Can you get a part number for the Ford diff spring? I'll get one and see what mods are needed to make it fit. I have a diff sitting on the shelf I could try it out on.
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Post by superD » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:40 pm

this would work with an automatic also correct?
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Post by TurboGLH » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:08 pm

Ford P/N E4DZ 4214 A

For the best results we have the lip planed off the gears when using a PG, and the same would apply with this spring. The cost is from the machine shop we use is somewhere between $25-50 depending on how many we have done at once.

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Post by Ghost Neon » Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:30 pm

superD wrote:this would work with an automatic also correct?
Yes. I am in the process of completing this idea at the moment. If you click on the original link for TD.com, you can see some personal testimonies to the success of this application. The total cost come to about $27.50 ($5.xx for the diff saver tabs from Mopar & $22.50 for the diff spring from Ford dealer). Diff tabs took one day and the spring arrived same day. Hope to have this installed next week.

This should make for a practically unbreakable diff under proper driving conditions. Awesome for turbo atx cars. Mtx cars still have gears to take car of.
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Post by superD » Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:13 am

this will be perfect for my automatic... once i get enough power to actually spin the wheels alot on launch :lol:


and how exactly are people modifying the gears? any pics?
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Post by Ghost Neon » Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:28 am

superD wrote:this will be perfect for my automatic... once i get enough power to actually spin the wheels alot on launch :lol:


and how exactly are people modifying the gears? any pics?
The spider gears?
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Here ya go.

Post by Ghost Neon » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:48 am

double post :oops:
Last edited by Ghost Neon on Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Here ya go.

Post by Ghost Neon » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:32 am

Ghost Neon wrote:Finally had time to get this all done. P You will have to hit the pin from the underside of the diff to remove. You'll see when you have yours out. Took a few whacks, so be patient and careful not to hurt yourself.

Image
Ford part# E4DZ-4514-A Cost $22.50. Ordered in the afternoon and arrived same day. That's nice[/Borat]

Image
Diff from my spare trans out of a 97 5speed stratus. Seems any 5speed or atx the was mated to a neon compatible block will work. The diff is the point of concern
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Be sure to remove the plastic speedo gear before removing the dowel pin that holds the diff in place. The diff retainer pin will come in contact with the plastic ring gear if not removed prior. Gently pry it out with a flathead screw driver.

Image
Weapon Of choice. This part all depends on you. Previous comments speak of machining down the spider gears for ease of entry. The upper and lower gears have a bit of a lip there. I saw that as greater holding power under load, so I chose to use some force.

Image
With the table vice being only so long, the diff was inverted. This part was slightly challenging, but is still pretty simple at the same time. Had to hold the diff at an angle to get the S-spring into position. When applying pressure from the table vice, check every few turns to be sure the S-spring is centered. Be sure to allow about an hour to get this done. If the spring is not centerd, it will start to bend when it comes in contact the the spider gear on the side. Use a long sturdy screwdriver, or other prying tool to correct.

Image


Image
This is the finished product.

Cost run down & tools required:
1/8" pin punch - $2.38
12" flat head screw driver
13mm socket
3/8 rachet/breaker bar
claw hammer/mini sledge
table vice
red loc tite
diff saver tabs $5.xx
S-spring =$22.50
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Post by BROUWER » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:44 am

now get it in the car and let us know how it works.
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Post by Ghost Neon » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:36 am

BROUWER wrote:now get it in the car and let us know how it works.
I'll never tell...


This will be a busy week. Going with shadow/2G axles, the MPG head, and now this diff project. Anyone have anything else to add to the list? This may be of benefit, as the power anticipated from the head should be notable to say the least. Yes, results will be reported in but a few days time.
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Post by Pantyeatr » Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:00 pm

in the last pic it looks like nothing is holding the spring in there. whats holding it that i can't see??
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Post by fostersnc » Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:31 pm

Ghost if you get that thing to work you are going to be lucky. That S spring is designed to be in a Traction Lok kit for the Ford 8.8 rear end. Without the carbon disks that's for the Ford Semi Pos unit it should not work. I use to work at a mostly Ford performance shop and have helped rebuild a few ford 8.8 rear ends.

Good luck if you can get that to work without a Disk Pack.

Here is a link to the rebuild kit for a Posi 8.8 and you will see the S spring and the friction disks... Click on the pict and you see all of it.

http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/onl ... 7dab1c836e
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Post by 95sprtcpedrvr » Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:12 pm

Pantyeatr wrote:in the last pic it looks like nothing is holding the spring in there. whats holding it that i can't see??
The diff pin.
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Post by chipdogg » Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:18 pm

Wait, all you do is take out the diff pin, put the spring in there, and slide the diff pin back through it? If so, and it seems to work, I might as well do that since my trans is sitting on the ground outside right now. I already have the tabs in there.
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Post by Ghost Neon » Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:54 pm

fostersnc wrote:Ghost if you get that thing to work you are going to be lucky. That S spring is designed to be in a Traction Lok kit for the Ford 8.8 rear end. Without the carbon disks that's for the Ford Semi Pos unit it should not work.
For conformation, click the link in the first post of the thread, and see the 2nd page. This has already been done, but TD owners pulling 2.0 - 1.9 60ft times on street radials using this spring alone. No luck required :wink: That spring in th pic is a pretty strong piece of equipment, and the spider gears do not budge when the spring is installed. It is putting a substantial amount of force on the gears. Personal reviews state it is more responsive that the Phantom grip, and look at the cost. Provided My engine build goes well over the next few days. Mine will go in Wednesday, along my dohc head with powre linz (knock off brand). This is going to be a interesting conversion.
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Post by JeffB#2 » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:00 pm

Ghost Neon wrote: but TD owners pulling 2.0 - 1.9 60ft times on street radials.
You're not seeing the big picture.

Until someone does an honest break-away torque test you'll never have real answers that the masses will believe. If it works similar to a PG then fine, it's a cheap alternative. Neither will ever be of the caliber as a "real" limited slip diff.



Jack up one tire and try to drive away with the other one on the ground. PG won't. Quaife won't. Sure Grip in my 8 3/4 will. Posi in my 12-bolt will. Ford spring won't either I bet. The spring turns and "locks" the pin idea part sounds unreasonable. I'd like to know what "GLHS441" ran for a typical 60' before the spring install for an apples-to-apples comparo.
Last edited by JeffB#2 on Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by JeffB#2 » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:07 pm

'87 Charger GLHS #875 - (3rd quickest TD in the 1/8th on street radials) (not DR's)
[email protected] 89.77mph / 1.96 60 foot- boost staged to 20psi (300 treadwear pure street tires)
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1.9 60' is great but he's making boost sitting at a dead stop. it could 60' better than that on street tires depending on how much boost, how the car is driven and how it's set up.
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Post by Ghost Neon » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:41 pm

JeffB#2 wrote:
Ghost Neon wrote: but TD owners pulling 2.0 - 1.9 60ft times on street radials.
You're not seeing the big picture.

Until someone does an honest break-away torque test you'll never have real answers that the masses will believe.
I see what you are getting at. Just not one to sit around and talk about it, wondering if it works. Not like this was my idea, as I have been accussed of false pionerring. Unlike the "magic" head, this time I am putting my money where someone else mouth is.
Jeff#2 wrote:Jack up one tire and try to drive away with the other one on the ground. PG won't. Quaife won't. Sure Grip in my 8 3/4 will. Posi in my 12-bolt will. Ford spring won't either I bet. The spring turns and "locks" the pin idea part sounds unreasonable. I'd like to know what "GLHS441" ran for a typical 60' before the spring install for an apples-to-apples comparo.
That was just how it felt. I can tell you the spring is not doing any twisting and locking in there, unless something is wrong, or Chipdogg did it *points finger* Would be nice to get more info, but I'll leave that to those with the means. The springs has the same function as the PG. If there is any difference in feel, I'll report.
Last edited by Ghost Neon on Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by fostersnc » Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:53 pm

Ghost Neon wrote:
fostersnc wrote:Ghost if you get that thing to work you are going to be lucky. That S spring is designed to be in a Traction Lok kit for the Ford 8.8 rear end. Without the carbon disks that's for the Ford Semi Pos unit it should not work.
For conformation, click the link in the first post of the thread, and see the 2nd page. This has already been done, but TD owners pulling 2.0 - 1.9 60ft times on street radials using this spring alone. No luck required :wink: That spring in th pic is a pretty strong piece of equipment, and the spider gears do not budge when the spring is installed. It is putting a substantial amount of force on the gears. Personal reviews state it is more responsive that the Phantom grip, and look at the cost. Provided My engine build goes well over the next few days. Mine will go in Wednesday, along my dohc head with powre linz (knock off brand). This is going to be a interesting conversion.

Ghost Im not trying to argue with you... If you can get it to work thats great... My old green car ran 2.2 60 ft times without anything in the trans.

I just dont see how the S spring will do much good without the friction discs. The discs are the key.. Everytime that we rebuilt a Pos rearend that had gone bad it was the discs that were burnt and had gone bad. If you can get it to work for that price.. :up:
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Post by Ghost Neon » Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:05 pm

fostersnc wrote:
Ghost Neon wrote:
fostersnc wrote:Ghost if you get that thing to work you are going to be lucky. That S spring is designed to be in a Traction Lok kit for the Ford 8.8 rear end. Without the carbon disks that's for the Ford Semi Pos unit it should not work.
For conformation, click the link in the first post of the thread, and see the 2nd page. This has already been done, but TD owners pulling 2.0 - 1.9 60ft times on street radials using this spring alone. No luck required :wink: That spring in th pic is a pretty strong piece of equipment, and the spider gears do not budge when the spring is installed. It is putting a substantial amount of force on the gears. Personal reviews state it is more responsive that the Phantom grip, and look at the cost. Provided My engine build goes well over the next few days. Mine will go in Wednesday, along my dohc head with powre linz (knock off brand). This is going to be a interesting conversion.

Ghost Im not trying to argue with you... If you can get it to work thats great... My old green car ran 2.2 60 ft times without anything in the trans.

I just dont see how the S spring will do much good without the friction discs. The discs are the key.. Everytime that we rebuilt a Pos rearend that had gone bad it was the discs that were burnt and had gone bad. If you can get it to work for that price.. :up:
No arguing or ill feelings here friend. Just brainstorming our different views. I get what you are saying. Same info that was discussed on TD. What got my attention was the comparison of LSD's, that are all nothing more than springs inside the diff. Is this really that far fetched? Mind you, this is not a post that The Quaife and such are a waste of money, but more an addition to the options available. Even with minor results, the cost sure made it tempting.
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Post by EA82 » Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:29 pm

JeffB#2 wrote:


Jack up one tire and try to drive away with the other one on the ground. PG won't. Quaife won't. Sure Grip in my 8 3/4 will. Posi in my 12-bolt will. Ford spring won't either I bet.
Step on the brake a little and see what happens :)

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Post by PurpleNeon » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:17 am

I'm really looking forward to hearing how this works out. It can't be worse than a Phantom Slip. It looks like it should have more spring pressure than one, no bad weight drawbacks, and the wear resistance of spring steel on the spider gears. Granted some sort of friction disks would make it better, but this is damn cheap here... as for friction disks wearing out, and slipping, I bet those friction disks cause the slippage once they're worn out.

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Post by Vitor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:56 am

I don't see that thing sheet of metal lasting too long.

When one axle is rotating and other is fixed, that spring will be shattering quite alot and even spring steel fractures.

Hate to see the mess that makes.

Why not use clutch packs that go with it? Spline on friction disks not same as neon axle? Neon axle don't go in that deep ?
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Post by Ghost Neon » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:27 am

Vitor wrote:I don't see that thin sheet of metal lasting too long.

When one axle is rotating and other is fixed, that spring will be shattering quite alot and even spring steel fractures.

That spring is at least 2-3times thicker than the diff saver tabs. It will not break on anything, as it is only applying vertical linear force. I did not get pic to show if it, but let me try to fill ya in. The flat surfaces of the spring of the upper and lower spider gears allow the spring to seat perfectly. it looks like it should have bee there.
Vitor wrote:Why not use clutch packs that go with it? Spline on friction disks not same as neon axle? Neon axle don't go in that deep ?
A specific clutch is designed for the clutch packs. Cannot just put them in and expect LSD results.
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Post by Vitor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:36 am

Completely different loadings.

Diff pin saver tab at most would encounter wear in nice even round pin.

Now that s-shaped spring does not provide equal loading on gear surface and since speed one one axle can and WILL differ even in normal operation, the unequal speeds will cause that spring to bounce around - aka shatter.

We need guinea pigs for testing - let's see how it goes.

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Post by JeffB#2 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:00 am

EA82 wrote:
JeffB#2 wrote:


Jack up one tire and try to drive away with the other one on the ground. PG won't. Quaife won't. Sure Grip in my 8 3/4 will. Posi in my 12-bolt will. Ford spring won't either I bet.
Step on the brake a little and see what happens :)
Go try it and see if yours will pull the car with one wheel. Mine won't. When Vitor broke an axle his wouldn't.
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Post by UptownSport » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:00 am

JeffB#2 wrote:
EA82 wrote:
JeffB#2 wrote:


Jack up one tire and try to drive away with the other one on the ground. PG won't. Quaife won't. Sure Grip in my 8 3/4 will. Posi in my 12-bolt will. Ford spring won't either I bet.
Step on the brake a little and see what happens :)
Go try it and see if yours will pull the car with one wheel. Mine won't. When Vitor broke an axle his wouldn't.
Missing the point. We aren't using these vehicles for rock climbing,
The tire's not going to be (hopefully) off the ground.
And RWD vehicles have much different needs than a FWD,
you need to limit differential because of the DS torque lifting the
passenger's wheel. FWD's'll spin both if all is equal, because
there's little driveline interference.

I want to be clear we don't have $1200 for a queef, or for a custom
LSD (You want to talk about one getting one made, I'm all ears)

Seems to me any limiting really helps. I recall reading someone
set records on an open differential.

Never realized pushing on the side gears was all the PG did...
So same effect same deal, less $$$. Only question is, will it
get chewed apart?


Thanks for posting this!!! Let us know!!!
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Post by chipdogg » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:28 pm

Lol, I'll try it. I don't plan on doing too much to my car before I hit up the drag strip next month. Although one could argue that a different stock 2.4 will cause different results since the last one is out.

I've been cutting 2.1's in my car with open diff (and the tabs cuz I won't drive a Neon without them).
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Post by JeffB#2 » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:35 pm

There's obviously a group here that doesn't understand what a limited slip diff will and won't do for these cars (or any cars/trucks). Including Ted. We're ALL after cheap solutions. Problem is that some folks jump after things that don't work or don't work very well without understanding all of the problems and potential solutions.
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Post by UptownSport » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:43 pm

I think I understand well enough what a LSD will do,
issue here is that it could make someone's car better
for $20. I understand very well that this isn't a done
deal, and ready for consumption. I want to hear if it
is before ratting it down
Minnesota Neons
Home of the 13.8 How-To
°
My self worth is not the size of my thighs
My self worth is not the size of my thighs
My self worth is not the size of my thighs

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Vitor
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Location: NJ - just outside NYC

Post by Vitor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:01 pm

Throw
a
marshm-
ellow
in
there

I
think
that
will
work
as
well
that
springie
piece
of
steel
Racing Neons since 1998! Over 20 years of on and off track experience. Be Smart, Take it to the Track.

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Ghost Neon
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Post by Ghost Neon » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:16 pm

Vitor wrote:Throw
a
marshm-
ellow
in
there

I
think
that
will
work
as
well
that
springie
piece
of
steel
People really do fear what they do not understand.

Look Vitor! If you cannot act mature about this, then keep your immature attitude out of my thread :evil: You wanna argue with someone then locate the "PM" button and enjoy. I made this post to simple share information, not asking anyone to do anything. In two days it will be in and I will let you know how it goes. If you are against this thread, then stop coming here.
Hi.

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Vitor
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Post by Vitor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:19 pm

:lol:

Have a nice day
Racing Neons since 1998! Over 20 years of on and off track experience. Be Smart, Take it to the Track.

http://www.neongoodies.com Monster Airdam, EGR Kits, Swaybar Brackets, DePowered Race Steering Racks...

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UptownSport
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Post by UptownSport » Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:11 pm

Vitor wrote:Throw
a
marshm-
ellow
in
there

I
think
that
will
work
as
well
that
springie
piece
of
steel
:lol: :lol:
Ghost Neon wrote:Look Vitor! If you cannot act mature about this
He generally can't act mature about anything :lol:
Minnesota Neons
Home of the 13.8 How-To
°
My self worth is not the size of my thighs
My self worth is not the size of my thighs
My self worth is not the size of my thighs

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Ghost Neon
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Location: Baltimore

Post by Ghost Neon » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:01 pm

So I have noticed. Well, stay tuned and perhaps you will learn something :wink: Weird. Today was a very good day actually. Found an 03 concorde with 2.7L valve train at the yard. This is going to get interesting. What sort of information are we expecting? Just so I can pay attention to the neon's behavior now, and after the diff install.
Hi.

Calum
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Posts: 505
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Location: Halifax

Post by Calum » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:22 pm

Ghost Neon wrote:What sort of information are we expecting? Just so I can pay attention to the neon's behavior now, and after the diff install.
Those of us that think this part isn't going to accomplish much at all, aren't going to believe anything short of hard numbers. Before and after 60 ft times, data logging of corner exit g forces & speed, or break away torque (as Jeff mentioned).

What I'm truely interested in, is how Ford designed that piece to survive in a differential.

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Vitor
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Post by Vitor » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:24 pm

To ford's benefit, it is intended for RWD application to function between multiple layers of friction material between it and the gears.

RWD also benefits from lower difference in wheel speed from left to right.

V
Last edited by Vitor on Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Racing Neons since 1998! Over 20 years of on and off track experience. Be Smart, Take it to the Track.

http://www.neongoodies.com Monster Airdam, EGR Kits, Swaybar Brackets, DePowered Race Steering Racks...

98 R/T Project Log: viewtopic.php?f=51&t=289255&start=600 (Retired)
DD: 2018 Camaro ZL1 1LE

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