Magnum Oiling Question

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Vanillahaze
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Magnum Oiling Question

Post by Vanillahaze » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:53 pm

Ok, so I was reading the thread on the sticky about oil drain issues on the magnum head and I have a question. In the thread it is enumerated that oil gets sucked into the engine through the PCV due to inadequate drain back. This sounds a lot like a problem that I have had since I reconnected the PCV valve. The team that I bought the car from had blocked it of, presumably to address this problem. My question is this: why does the oil get into the intake in left handers? I'm not doubting that it does as I experienced it firsthand, but I would think that the g forces would push the oil to the right hand, away from the PCV valve and this issue would be on right handers.

As far as specific advice goes, I am currently running a magnum block with a non magnum head. It was a spare head that I had put on before a race after the mag head I was going to use cracked. So, I have no oil restricter (outside of the gasket), and the magnum valve cover. clearly the 'improved' drain back of the VIN C head should help, but is not doing enough as I am still having the problem. Will switching to the 96-99 valve cover solve this for me or do I need to get an oil restricter in there? Also, does the magnum block still have the countersink to receive the restricter or am I SOL there?

Original thread: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=378212

occasional demons
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by occasional demons » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:39 pm

Honestly, I seen no difference between the Magnum head, and the Vin C head I have, as far as the oil drain back holes or the area around them. Both are early (for 2gn)castings. (2000 casting date)

You are going to get oil accumulated in the IM regardless of whether it is draining back adequately or not. Consider what's going on inside that valve cover: You have pistons rapidly pumping air around a crankshaft that's slinging oil from bearings, and the windage it creates. that vaporized oil is circulating throughout the engine. Then you have the cam and lifters slinging oil on top of all that. It is totally impossible for the PCV to pull oil free air from the valve cover, or anywhere else from the crankcase.


What you can do is reduce the amount of air the PCV valve can pull from the head, or pull air from another location.

I plumbed my IAC into the PVC line from the manifold, having the IAC not mounted to the TB. The air is split up between pulling it for idle control, and evacuating fumes from the crankcase. I have no moisture issues, and the amount of oil in the catch can isn't nearly as much as it used to be.

You could also make a tee in the dipstick tube, and pull air from there. just make sure there is a decent up hill travel for the air, so any oil being splashed into the tube can drainback. You would only have the air make up going into the valve cover.

The only issue I can see with that method, is there may be moisture accumulation in the rocker area.


Note, I also put the PVC valve directly onto a manifold vacuum source, and ran a line to the VC, so my whole catch can/plumbing to the valve cover is not under vacuum. I also run the air coming from the VC through a small cooler, which helps condense the heated oil and water vapor coming out of the VC. I actually get more water than oil in my catch can.

This is not a race car, but a DD. Even under normal driving conditions, I would get a pond of oil in the intake, until I revised the PCV system. The IAC part of it was more due to a non stock TB being used, and the reduced oil was just a bonus side effect.

My bet is suspended oil vapor, is probably the biggest culprit of why you are still getting oil in your IM.

But if you use an orifice style PVC valve, like what Mitsubishi uses, you could reduce the air flow, and still pull enough moisture out to keep from gunking up the engine, however you decide to plumb the PCV system.

But then if the oil is changed more often, because race car, the PCV isn't quite as important as it is on a DD, because you aren't trying to get 3000 to 7500 miles between oil changes.

With them having the PCV blocked off, as long as there was an adequate vent, they probably weren't doing much harm, as long as the oil was being changed more frequently. Not as environmentally friendly, but then neither are a few other aspects of offroad racing. It's not like these are going to pass a smog test.
- Bill

desmodromic wrote:You have to remember what's important here, while they make New humans everyday, they'll never make another Neon.
Skellibert wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:42 amThis is a daily by the way, not a track car or fun buggy.

Vanillahaze
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by Vanillahaze » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:53 pm

The issue that I'm having is not simply oil vapor in the pcv. Under heavy left hand corners it dumps a full smokescreen. This is sucking significant amounts of oil directly into the motor.

HottRodd
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by HottRodd » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:56 pm

Can you modify anything? How about a 45°at the valve cover going to a catch can . Doesn't a reservoir exist on the market just fot turning hard. My guess is you can't modify anything can you? Maybe put the valve in the front.
The 2003 2.0sx guy, 30k original miles :dance:
30k is that possible, Yeah :good: :

HottRodd
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by HottRodd » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:02 pm

If you can modify, hose 45° up ,then the pvc valve or even another hole to dump the extra oil back into the valve cover through a one way valve like those brake bleeders you see on ebay.
The 2003 2.0sx guy, 30k original miles :dance:
30k is that possible, Yeah :good: :

occasional demons
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by occasional demons » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:04 pm

Vanillahaze wrote: Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:53 pm The issue that I'm having is not simply oil vapor in the pcv. Under heavy left hand corners it dumps a full smokescreen. This is sucking significant amounts of oil directly into the motor.
Well, if you tee the dipstick tube, you'll either cure that, or you'll find that it isn't oil coming through the PCV system via the head...

A JY tube, and a little creativity with a 1/8 brass tee is a fairly cheap way to find out. As long as you cut the right amount of tube out for the tee, the dipstick should be pretty accurate.

You haven't lost oil pressure yet, so you know there is enough oil returning to the sump.
- Bill

desmodromic wrote:You have to remember what's important here, while they make New humans everyday, they'll never make another Neon.
Skellibert wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:42 amThis is a daily by the way, not a track car or fun buggy.

Vanillahaze
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by Vanillahaze » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:52 am

The PCV line is under vacuum, so moving the PCV itself up and away will still suck oil if it reaches the mouth of the line in the VC. Putting a separate line in this line back to the VC just makes a vacuum directly to the crankcase without any PCV control.

I'm not exactly sure what using a tee on the dipstick tube would do. Are you saying to put the PCV line there?

occasional demons
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by occasional demons » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:45 pm

Vanillahaze wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:52 am I'm not exactly sure what using a tee on the dipstick tube would do. Are you saying to put the PCV line there?
All you are doing is pulling the air from the crankcase, the air under the VC, essentially being part of the crankcase. The main purpose is to remove excess moisture and combustion byproducts that make it by the rings. If the rings could seal 100%, there would be no need for the PCV.

So as long as you are pulling in fresh filtered air, and drawing the "waste" air out, you are helping prolong the oil life, and therefore the engine life.

In theory, since heat and steam rise, the uppermost part of the engine would be the best place to draw the contaminated air out. But since the ability of the valve cover to keep the oil out of the PCV valve line is marginal at best, teeing the dipstick tube is about as close as you will get to the '95 SOHC set up, as it pulled and replaced air from the crankcase area, and not the head. I don't think the '95 SOHC had a huge moisture in the head issue, so I don't think it will be too much of a problem, especially since this is not a DD, and won't see 12,000 or more miles a year, or 7500 between oil changes.

The worst case scenario I have seen was a Mitsubishi forklift, the make up air entered the valve cover, and the PCV pulled air from a tube in the oil pan, and it had a catch can of sorts to separate the oil. It didn't work too well. There was always moisture gunking up the system.

I ended up capping the tube in the oil pan, and pulled air from the timing chain cover, and left the air make up in the VC. The white gunk was no longer an issue after that. I basically made a home made orifice to regulate the air flow. It doesn't have to be rocket science, you only need to move enough air to keep it from gunking up.

The 2gn Valve Cover PVC threads are 3/8 pipe, so all you would need is a pipe plug just snug enough to seal it. Maybe hand tight with some RTV silicone. It is easy to crack, especially if the VC is the standard plastic one. You could do tee in the dipstick to a catch can to the PCV valve to the IM.
- Bill

desmodromic wrote:You have to remember what's important here, while they make New humans everyday, they'll never make another Neon.
Skellibert wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:42 amThis is a daily by the way, not a track car or fun buggy.

HottRodd
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by HottRodd » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:03 pm

How many hg's of vaccum does it take to open the pcv? Giving more line for the oil to drain back before the pvc on an incline might promote better drain back. The inside of the valve cover did you have a good look? In your opinion could the design be better? Oil pans (aftermarket ones) have shields to prevent splash around, right . So why not valve covers . I also get oil in my IM . What a drag.... I bought a catch can. ..
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sEeUNPdiqURYzozf1
If that doesn't work I will definitely look at the valve cover to see if a little shield might work
The 2003 2.0sx guy, 30k original miles :dance:
30k is that possible, Yeah :good: :

occasional demons
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by occasional demons » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:51 am

The VC has a shield riveted to the cover. It won't keep out vapor, or if the oil is driven that way by G forces.

If there is excessive blow by, oil will even saturate the air make up line, and on stock set ups, blow vapors into the air duct on 1gn's, and the air box on 2gn's. For 1gn's, the oil will travel in the air duct, to either the air box, or make it's way into the throttle body, and thus into the IM, adding to what gets pulled in via the PCV valve. There is not enough air volume to overcome excess blow by. To remedy that, the PCV would have to move more air, and the idle would be very high.

My '01 just drips it out of the small filter I have on the line, and then eventually to the road. (It would end up on the pavement with the stock set up too.)
- Bill

desmodromic wrote:You have to remember what's important here, while they make New humans everyday, they'll never make another Neon.
Skellibert wrote: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:42 amThis is a daily by the way, not a track car or fun buggy.

Vanillahaze
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by Vanillahaze » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:28 pm

Ok, so we went racing this weekend, and ended up getting this sorted out. We were getting a big cloud of oil after turns 1 and 2 which basically make up one big 180 turn. We determined that the oil was building up in the head after sustained G's and dumping in the pcv. We solved the issue by plumbing the pcv from the nipple that normally attaches to the breather filter on the 01 stock setup. I found a connector to screw into the original pcv location and ran that to the engine air filter with a check valve. This line also runs to the pan, so if the head loads up now, it should just act as an additional drain back. I should be able to get some pictures at some point to show what I did.

JeremyJ
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by JeremyJ » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:37 am

If you ever get around to removing the head, you can open up and smooth out the oil return passages in the head. Here's a picture of mine after some porting:

Image
2002 Neon base -> 2005 SRT-4 ACR -> 1996 Dodge Neon sedan -> 1999 R/T Coupe -> 2002 R/T -> 2003 SRT-4

Build Thread: https://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=69296

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NickKo
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by NickKo » Sat May 05, 2018 7:05 am

JeremyJ wrote: Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:37 am If you ever get around to removing the head, you can open up and smooth out the oil return passages in the head. Here's a picture of mine after some porting:

Image
'A picture is worth a thousand words'. :smile: Thanks for posting this !!

- Nick
-1998 2-dr SOHC MTX= 52mm TB; Maddog STS
-1999 4-dr DOHC ATX= went to car heaven (junkyard)
-2000 Ply.LX with MTX = Maddog STS; CAI; R/T muffler + Header
-2001 Ddg.ES ATX = UDP, Magnum Header; + Syked PCM 'pending'

-1971 Ply.Scamp SL6cyl. ('Horse Traded' away)
-1968 Chry.300 w/440 V8 (sold)
"MoPar or No Car"

JeremyJ
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Re: Magnum Oiling Question

Post by JeremyJ » Mon May 07, 2018 3:38 pm

No problem. Now let's hope Imgur doesn't take a dump like Photobucket did.
2002 Neon base -> 2005 SRT-4 ACR -> 1996 Dodge Neon sedan -> 1999 R/T Coupe -> 2002 R/T -> 2003 SRT-4

Build Thread: https://forum.2gn.org/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=69296

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